00;00;02;16 - 00;00;21;24
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper and biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to further. I'm Brennan Grimm, here again with Chris Carr. How are you doing today?

00;00;21;27 - 00;00;24;10
Chris
Pretty good. Looking forward to our conversation today.

00;00;24;11 - 00;00;45;06
Brenton
Yeah, I think it'll be a good one. we'll just start the show out by just, talking about some upcoming plans. So once this, series is done, we have two more weeks of it left. we're going to go into a Psalm series, and actually, during that psalm series, we're going to take a break from, from the podcast.

00;00;45;06 - 00;01;07;26
Brenton
So we will be out for about a month. and we'll be back on the 18th of August. So it's possible that there will be a few, few things released in that time, but it's not going to be a weekly, show through that time. So, I'm sure you'll be patient. I'm sure. I'm sure we won't ruin your summer by doing this.

00;01;07;29 - 00;01;14;12
Brenton
So, do you want to kind of talk over what what the reason for this home series is?

00;01;14;14 - 00;01;44;05
Chris
Sure. the Psalms are so, so rich, and, you know, like, personally, for me, they've been so foundational in my spiritual formation, and I find myself in them, repeatedly. And they're so rich theologically. But they also speak to, I think, our hearts in a way that, other parts of Scripture don't. and, you know, they are they're songs.

00;01;44;08 - 00;02;09;02
Chris
but they're, they're songs in which we are, encouraged. And it's modeled for us about how to communicate with God, how to relate to him, how to, lament, how to pray. and, so just really, really beneficial. And obviously there's, you know, 150 of them. And so it's, you know, if we were to do a series on the songs, we went through them all.

00;02;09;02 - 00;02;34;00
Chris
It would take years and years. And so, you know, we did a series in the Psalms a few few years back. And so we're going to with a shorter series and we'll, we'll hit here, another shorter series. And so I just, I think it's important to incorporate those, into our, our preaching schedule and hopefully to help us to incorporate them into our, our walk with the Lord and hopefully, in our, our spiritual growth and our own formation.

00;02;34;04 - 00;02;54;22
Brenton
Yeah. And like you touched on a little bit there, there's so many different categories of Psalms that we can go through. And so we're going to get kind of a sampling of all of those through through this series too. Yeah. yeah. Another unique part of it is we're actually going to have different, people preaching on different topics, are different chapters throughout the weeks.

00;02;54;22 - 00;03;10;00
Brenton
And so there's going to be a lot of content, not only, you know, on, on Sundays wherever you're attending campus, but the, there's going to be, sermons online of, you know, chapters that you haven't seen at your own campus. And so feel free to check that stuff out.

00;03;10;04 - 00;03;32;15
Chris
Yeah. And, maybe I just mentioned a couple of other things here. first of all, I, I think it's important for us to realize that that Jesus was intimately familiar with the Psalms. He quotes the Psalms more than any other Old Testament book. and so if it was so key to him, it's, you know, the Psalms should be important to us.

00;03;32;17 - 00;03;50;23
Chris
and then I also do want to highlight just a little bit of a preview after the Psalms series. This this fall, we're going to kick it out, kick off a series in the Gospel of John. really looking forward to that. we also want to be in the Gospels on a regular basis as part of our kind of, our preaching, rhythm.

00;03;50;26 - 00;04;09;22
Chris
is to be in the Gospels on, on a regular basis and, never preach to, the gospel. John, I haven't and, yeah, that's going to be a longer series. We'll scatter some other things in between. But, it's going to be great. And I think it's going to be really, really beneficial for our church. So we'll have some great discussions coming up on that, this fall.

00;04;09;22 - 00;04;25;15
Chris
And so, you know, part of the reason taking a break here is helping us to get geared up for the fall and, and, give us some more time to work on some of those, those kind of things. But, hope you guys will be back with us. when we when we pick back up there. in August for sure.

00;04;25;17 - 00;04;29;05
Brenton
last time we did a gospel, you were in it for, what, two years?

00;04;29;07 - 00;04;55;15
Chris
Well, we've been in, snippets of, the Gospels, over the years. We've done series in Luke. We we did do a little series in John on the I am statements of Jesus. we've been back, into the Gospel of Matthew, like the sermon on the Mount, but yes. When when I first came to Harmony, now, almost 13 years ago, I was one of the first series that I did.

00;04;55;15 - 00;05;13;13
Chris
And, it took two and a half years. So, I don't know if it's going to be that long after that series, and, like, I don't know that, I want to do that again. But this one, this one will be quite a while, and, and it'll be really good. And we'll, we'll scatter in other, series and topics and things like that.

00;05;13;13 - 00;05;20;00
Chris
But, the words of Jesus, it's the life of Jesus and, the center of the gospel. And so it's well worth our time.

00;05;20;04 - 00;05;40;05
Brenton
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. All right, so as we kind of dive into Esther seven here, we're going to spend a decent amount of time talking about idols. but before we do that, I think it's important to talk about, you know, what worship is. And so it's clear from Scripture that that God created us to worship.

00;05;40;05 - 00;06;09;19
Brenton
We especially see that in, in Romans one, verse 23, Paul says, they exchange the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and bird and birds and animals and creeping things. And here we see that, that people will worship something, whether it's whether it's God or not, they're going to find something to worship. And so can we start just by, having you kind of give us a working definition of what worship is?

00;06;09;21 - 00;06;41;03
Chris
Sure. It's, a big, big topic, honestly. And so I'll probably come at it from a, a variety of different angles here. But so the word worship actually comes from two different words worth ship, so worth and ship. So, to worship something is, you know, like to praise it above everything else. To say it is it is worthy of my, service and and my valuing it and holding it up above, other things.

00;06;41;05 - 00;07;00;09
Chris
that's kind of what the, the the English word means. I think biblically, the the best place to begin here is Romans 12 one. And I think this is really important in light of what you just read from Romans 123. So, you know, we because of the fall, we worship created things. And so the creator, that's how Paul starts.

00;07;00;11 - 00;07;31;13
Chris
Romans but then, you know, he's he spends the next, ten chapters. so that's from the end of chapter one, all the way through chapter 11, laying out the gospel and about how, really Jesus came, to redeem our worship, to restore our ability to be able to worship the creator instead of created things. Because the reality is, is that, because of the fall, we are incapable of worshiping our creator.

00;07;31;19 - 00;07;53;19
Chris
It's not only simply that we we we choose not to. Yes, we choose not to, but we're incapable of actually, worshiping him instead of, instead of idols. Our hearts are bent in the wrong way. We're dead in our trespasses and sins or unregenerate. We cannot please, you know, Paul actually says, you know, those in the flesh cannot please God.

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Brenton
Yeah.

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Chris
But then through the gospel, we're we're we're we're justified. We're, regenerated. We're given a new heart. We are the term we use save, you know, a restored relationship with God, all of those things. And then in, in Romans 12, so after Paul's finished his great treatise on the gospel, he begins this new section by saying, I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual.

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Chris
Here's the word worship. And so, in worship there, I guess Paul is defining it as, offering our, our bodies, which I think there includes everything that we are, including our everything that we are our, our entire self, up to God as, a living sacrifice where we're presenting ourselves to him just to serve him, and to make him our highest value, our highest treasure.

00;08;54;00 - 00;09;20;23
Chris
and so, if you want a good definition and there are a lot of them out there, I think Leo Giglio, a great one. Worship is our response, both personal and corporate, to God for who he is and what he has done, expressed in and by the things we say and the way we live. and I think that that's a good kind of maybe explanation of, of Romans 12 one worship is our response, both personal and corporate.

00;09;20;23 - 00;09;46;00
Chris
So as individuals and then together as the body of Christ to God for who he is and what he has done, expressed in and by the things we say and the things that we, we live. and then the only other thing I would add there is I think, Colossians one, you know, 15, through 20, which I won't read the whole passage, but it talks about how, Jesus.

00;09;46;02 - 00;10;04;24
Chris
is the image of the invisible God. And by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. All things were created through him and for him. he is the head of the body. The church. He is the beginning, the firstborn of the that everything. He might be preeminent. That means how the first place.

00;10;04;26 - 00;10;27;20
Chris
And so that's, that's what it is, that and and and why we do it is because he's our creator, and this is what he's made us for, and this is what he's redeemed us for. And Paul actually goes on later, in Colossians to explain, you know, this is why we worship, because, of our redemption and in our reconciliation with God that he achieved for us.

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Brenton
Yeah, that's really helpful. I, I think that, you know, we, we only associate that word typically with the worship of God. But, you know, with that, with that definition in mind that it's we can worship anything, right? So we we can have our affections, our, our lives can be kind of pushed in, in any direction. And we can we can put anything above God.

00;10;53;03 - 00;10;57;18
Brenton
but I don't think we like to use that word worship with anything but God.

00;10;57;20 - 00;11;17;00
Chris
Right. We are. I mean, I said this on Sunday, we are worshipers. Yeah, that's what we that's what we do. And it's. So it's not a question of whether we worship or not worship. We are worshiping. it's the question of who? What? yeah. We actually giving our lives to.

00;11;17;00 - 00;11;26;09
Brenton
So maybe this is a read. but but why do you think that God created us with an inherent desire to worship.

00;11;26;12 - 00;12;00;09
Chris
I think yeah, that's a great question. And I don't know that I, I have a great answer to it. I think it, it probably largely relates to, you know, he, he made us for himself, and, he, he made it so, so that we would bring him glory and, and that we would, you know, recognize, see, his, greatness.

00;12;00;12 - 00;12;26;05
Chris
but it's also not just like, for him, it's also for us. And, he created us to, to to worship so that because that's where we're going to find our our greatest joy, our greatest fulfillment, our greatest satisfaction, and so, you know, and I think it's a common accusation is like, you know, God's creating people to worship him, and he's making things, you know, all about him.

00;12;26;05 - 00;12;45;08
Chris
And and so that can sound strange to us. And, you know, and it sounds wrong because if, if, if like if I were to say, hey, everything should be about me and you guys should worship me and, and I should be praying and everything you would naturally say, you know, kind of respond to that, hopefully in horror.

00;12;45;08 - 00;13;14;01
Chris
I mean, that's that's not, that's that's not a, that's not good. and, you know, but God, he he deserves deserves it. I mean, it would be wrong not to worship him because he truly does deserve it. He truly is worthy of all praise, honor and glory. And so, you know, God didn't need to create us.

00;13;14;01 - 00;13;43;07
Chris
That's important for us to, to bring out the. He didn't create us out of any need that he has, the Trinity among the members. They they had everything still have everything that they need simply within the relationships. But they they created us out of the the love that they have for one another. And I think, in, in part, they did that so that we could experience and join in that love with them that they've, experience from all, eternity.

00;13;43;08 - 00;13;47;16
Chris
So I don't know if that's a great answer or not, but it's maybe the best I can do at this point.

00;13;47;16 - 00;14;15;12
Brenton
Yeah, I think it's good. okay. So given that definition of of worship, you know, most of the scriptural references to idolatry are in a specific context for, for example, you quoted Psalm 115. I'll just read that real fast. So, he, the author says their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths but do not speak eyes, but do not see.

00;14;15;12 - 00;14;40;07
Brenton
They have ears, but do not hear noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel feet, but do not walk. And they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them, so do all who trust in them. And so you see kind of the author kind of being satirical about these physical idols that are made of silver and gold.

00;14;40;10 - 00;14;56;29
Brenton
so this this idea is still obviously true in some places around the world, but they actually have physical, idols. But when we're talking about idolatry in American Christianity, how does that normally present itself?

00;14;57;01 - 00;15;19;00
Chris
I think it's important to understand that those idols, they're they're not really worshiping the, the physical objects. I mean, those are just a, a manifestation of, you know, they're praying for some god, the God to provide rain, or there's a fertility goddess or, you know, power, provision, god of war or you know, love and, you know, those kind of things.

00;15;19;00 - 00;15;31;21
Chris
And so, yeah, we've got to remember that, you know, you were you were just recently in Thailand, right? And you literally sought physical idols. But this physical idols are representations of some God. Yeah.

00;15;31;22 - 00;15;53;18
Brenton
There's always something in, in their life, at least at least in that area. And, you know, I think that expands a lot around the world. But there's always something that they are looking for in their life that they think they're going to find by sacrificing something to one of these gods. And so it's it's a constant struggle of trying to please, please these gods by worshiping.

00;15;53;25 - 00;16;19;13
Chris
Sure. And they're they're looking for something know from that god. Right. I mean, that's what they, they want. is like, if I do this, give this offering, pray this way or, you know, make some type of sacrifice and that then the God is going to hear me and and give me what I'm I'm looking for it longing for.

00;16;19;13 - 00;16;55;22
Chris
And so, it may maybe it's not as easy to detect, but we have, you know, idols to that we're looking to whether it's, it's power, it's it's money, it's success. you go on down the list and, we are giving ourselves to them in hopes that they will give us something, else. and if I can use a baseball analogy here, and, I'm thinking a lot about baseball because my Yankees are having a great, great season.

00;16;55;25 - 00;17;18;20
Chris
I should have them happy for you. Yeah, I should be careful, on that, but, you know, back in the, the late 90s, in the early 2000, there was a bunch of really good baseball players that made some really poor decisions. And they, started taking steroids, and they basically ruined their reputation. And now are not in the Hall of Fame.

00;17;18;20 - 00;17;50;10
Chris
You take Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, some of the, I mean, literally considered the greatest baseball players of their time. And it wasn't enough for them to be. I mean, they're they were already among the best before they started taking them, but they, they so, gave themselves to this idea of success or the fear that they were not going to be good enough that they, they were literally worshiping, you know, success and out of fear.

00;17;50;10 - 00;18;16;15
Chris
I've got to do this to, to placate this, this God of mine, of being literally the best. and so that's just, you know, they're not literally bowing down to any idol, but they are they're worshiping or, you know, a little more recent in the at the housing crash, in the financial collapse in 2008, 2009, so many, financial executives literally killed them.

00;18;16;15 - 00;18;56;02
Chris
So there's guys, you know, they're jumping out of buildings. and, that kind of mirrors what happened back in, you know, the 20s when in the Great Depression. What what is what is that? Well, because they've been worshiping money was everything to them. and so and and we all have these examples, you know, of whether it's beauty, and, and relationships, I mean, it can even be, you know, I see this this is, an issue, maybe a touchy subject here, but here in our area, family can easily become an idol.

00;18;56;02 - 00;19;20;27
Chris
And almost all of the time, idols are not bad things. They're actually good things that we make the most important thing. Yeah, almost always like, idols. I would be hard pressed to come up with an idol. that is actually in and of itself, a bad thing. Yeah. I mean, you just take six, for example, and the church is not done a very good job with this.

00;19;21;00 - 00;19;40;06
Chris
At times. We've given this idea that sex in itself is dirty or wrong with is not the case at all. The Bible has a very, positive view of sex. but within the boundaries of marriage and and the way that God created it in a way that it's going to be the best for us and the best for the community and society.

00;19;40;09 - 00;20;01;00
Chris
But what we do is we elevate sex above you, you know, it's the the highest, good that there there can be the greatest thing they can be. And so we end up making choices that are harmful to us and harmful to other people in service of that God. And we can literally see this. I mean, I intend to go down this is it's June, right?

00;20;01;00 - 00;20;24;14
Chris
And it's pride month. And like what I want to believe it's true about my gender and about my sexuality. That's above that's above all else. Nobody can say anything different. Don't you dare. Don't you dare challenge what I believe is is to be the case. And, it just. Yeah. And ultimately that as we talked about on Sunday, it will destroy us.

00;20;24;17 - 00;20;37;27
Brenton
Yeah. So. So what do you think is at the root of, of our, you know, our need to, to worship anything other than God? What what does that come down to?

00;20;38;00 - 00;21;10;15
Chris
I think we're looking for, value and worth and acceptance and love and, our sinful, broken heart tells us that if we just have a little bit more of this, that that's what we'll that's what we'll do it for us. And, you know, we we were created to, find our value and worth and identity in our relationship with God and who he made us to be.

00;21;10;17 - 00;21;37;06
Chris
And so, since the again, the the fall and you can't blame it everything on the fall and I mean well that's where it all goes back to. It's like all of a sudden now, that relationship is broken. And so we, we don't trust God. We run from him, we hide from him. We and we also shame enters into the picture.

00;21;37;06 - 00;22;05;23
Chris
We. I hit on this a little bit last week, but now shame is like, there's something wrong with me, there's something missing with me. And we feel that shame when it comes to God and that is that is true. But instead of running to him and seeking his forgiveness and his covering for our sin and shame, we try to cover it by all of these other things, and they just they can't do it.

00;22;05;23 - 00;22;11;20
Chris
But we convince ourselves of just a little bit more, and Yeah.

00;22;11;27 - 00;22;12;12
Brenton


00;22;12;15 - 00;22;26;20
Chris
And it's just never. And that's the thing, it's just never enough. I, I've quoted John de Rockefeller before, the wealthiest man in American history. in his day, he had amassed a fortune in our day of 400 plus billion dollars.

00;22;26;24 - 00;22;27;24
Brenton
Yep.

00;22;27;26 - 00;22;45;21
Chris
He asked, you know, how much is enough? Just a little more. Yeah. And that's just the way that it is. It is the way it is with sex. It is the way with power. and it is the way with, you know.

00;22;45;24 - 00;23;05;10
Chris
Money. It is, you know, material possessions. It's just never, ever enough. And you see this with your kids every year at Christmas, I mean. Right, you get all these new toys and everything. And how long does it take before they're damaged or they they want something new and, and, you know, and we, we adults, you know, we've mature for them.

00;23;05;10 - 00;23;07;00
Chris
That's that's just not the case.

00;23;07;02 - 00;23;17;22
Brenton
No it's not. Yeah. We were we were cleaning my daughter's room not too long ago. And I went through with a broom and a dustpan and threw about half for toys away. And she didn't even care.

00;23;17;24 - 00;23;18;10
Chris
Yeah.

00;23;18;12 - 00;23;20;26
Brenton
Yeah, that's that's just kind of how we all are.

00;23;20;26 - 00;23;21;26
Chris
Well, yeah, I.

00;23;21;26 - 00;23;22;20
Brenton
Collect things.

00;23;22;20 - 00;23;46;16
Chris
And is telling myself I got to be. I mean, honestly, I, I feel this, I go to Scheels and like, it's like, and I've got quite a bit of hunting outdoor gear and, you know, I go in there like, oh, I love that this, I love that this, I love that this. And you know, and the temptation is if I just have this gun or this bow or this thing that's going to yeah, it's going to make me happy.

00;23;46;16 - 00;24;13;10
Chris
And and yeah, I mean temporarily, it's great. And it's and there's nothing wrong again. There's nothing wrong with buying a gun or a bow, you know, and, all that. But the temptation is, is like, this is going to do it for me instead of trying to view it as like, this is these are guides, gifts for me to be able to enjoy his creation and ultimately, it's not about the the gift, it's about the giver.

00;24;13;12 - 00;24;15;22
Chris
and that's a hard, yeah, hard thing to walk through.

00;24;15;24 - 00;24;38;03
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. Okay. so this thinking just practically how how can we, better identify these things in our lives, you know, if we're willing to kind of take a deeper look into our lives and recognize that we do have idols, how how can we identify those?

00;24;38;06 - 00;25;12;12
Chris
Well, I think one way is to ask, you know, how do you react when you when you lose something or something, that it's threatened that you're going to lose it? Yeah. You know, is there something that, like, really, really gets gets to you, you get fearful about if you might actually lose it? Is is, or are there things that you are not just sad if you lose them, but you're devastated.

00;25;12;15 - 00;25;43;13
Chris
Yeah. You know, so, I mean, you can use a whole whole list of things, but, like, how how do you react? or how do you define yourself? Maybe feeling that you're going to react when something is taken away from you? or you know, how how well do you receive criticism? Okay. That nobody, I don't know, maybe receives criticism like, great, like, oh, bring it on or anything like that.

00;25;43;15 - 00;26;09;28
Chris
But there's there's a difference between, you know, criticism hurting you and criticism and that absolutely devastating you. there's a there's a difference between said that, you know, you're vehicle gets totaled in like it's the end of the world if it gets totaled. and you could just go on, on down the list. of those kind of things.

00;26;09;28 - 00;26;48;01
Chris
So that's, that's one of the key things is like, how important is this, to be, how how tight of a grip do I have on it? another way, I think, is how generous are you with, you know, the things that you you have. And if you're not generous and we just, you know, we talked about this financially, but it's true in, in, in a lot of other ways is like, how generous are you with your resources, with your with your home, with, you know, even with your work, I mean, it if, if there's not if that's not there, then that probably shows you've got an idol in your life.

00;26;48;01 - 00;27;13;19
Chris
How outside of a grip do you have on things? Yeah. yeah. So, I think that if we're honest and we're willing to examine ourself and, you know, like David talks about Psalm 51, you know, Lord, you know, creamy, like a clean heart, renew right spirit with him in me. And he says, examine my heart, test me, and show me if there's any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.

00;27;13;19 - 00;27;33;08
Chris
And like going before the Lord and asking him to reveal those those things to you. But I just know for me it is, you know how how big of a grip, have on it. I'll give you an example. Here's another baseball example. So and, sorry for all of you who hate sports eventually hate hate baseball.

00;27;33;11 - 00;28;09;07
Chris
but I just realized earlier, this summer, that I was just it wasn't just, you know, something I was enjoying. It was just, like, something you just had. I was given too much time to it. Too much focus to it. and what was interesting is like, okay, I, I really need to kind of cut back here because it's, it's become a bigger thing and, and then when I made a decision of how is going to limit my consumption, how hard, how hard it was.

00;28;09;09 - 00;28;35;00
Chris
That, you know, that like, it's like, why is this? So it's just a base, just baseball. I mean, it literally. It's great. It's fun. Like for me anyway. but it's it's it's it's a game, right? I mean, just and think about like, sports is a great example how passionate and zealous people are about and, you know, they're sensitive.

00;28;35;00 - 00;28;41;01
Chris
So I don't know if you've noticed this, but people are losing their minds over this. Caitlin Clark and this whole WNBA thing.

00;28;41;04 - 00;28;43;00
Brenton
I felt like it passed a while ago, but maybe, I.

00;28;43;00 - 00;29;04;23
Chris
Don't know, it hasn't yet. And it's just crazy that, you know, we're we're talking about it. It's a game. Yeah. Okay. And I'm Caitlin Clark planned so I know don't hate them and like oh yeah. Know people getting upset I'm Caitlin Clark fan I think she's great. and she's handling things seemingly really, really well. But I'm really not even talking about her.

00;29;04;23 - 00;29;14;23
Chris
I'm just talking about, like, everybody else is like, just losing their minds over what's going on there. And we're literally talking about a game.

00;29;14;26 - 00;29;39;18
Brenton
Yeah. So would it, would it be right to say, you know, that another way we can find idols in our lives, where do we go to for comfort? Because I think that, you know, sports could be that in anything could be that. Then, you know, if you're, if you're going through something that you feel like you don't have control over, you can go to something like, like sports.

00;29;39;18 - 00;29;51;03
Brenton
So you can you can kind of become addicted to these things that just make us feel better. And take our mind off of things or at least feel like something we can control. yeah. Is that.

00;29;51;03 - 00;29;51;23
Chris
Yeah, sure.

00;29;51;24 - 00;29;53;03
Brenton
Is that something to look at too.

00;29;53;04 - 00;29;59;26
Chris
Yeah. I mean, you're, you're using something to help you to deal with the problems that you have in your life. Yeah.

00;29;59;29 - 00;30;21;20
Brenton
Well, it also shows our dependency that we have in general. And you know, we we, we kind of throw our dependency on all of these other things where God calls us to depend on him alone. And so, you know, where or where are we going to, for comfort and where should we be going? Sure.

00;30;21;22 - 00;30;41;29
Chris
Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. No, that's a really that's a really good point. It's we medicate and and when you say medicate, I'm not just talking about drugs or alcohol, but it's busyness. I mean, I think for a lot of people it's, they're like phone in technology, right? I mean, like.

00;30;42;02 - 00;30;43;02
Brenton
I don't know what you're talking about.

00;30;43;02 - 00;31;13;17
Chris
Yeah. But it's just like, it's it's we're we're, And we don't think of it isn't is an idle but again and and by the way, it's, in this a deeper conversation. But but ultimately under that, we're looking to the idle because there's something missing, something some longing, some hurt, some pain that we're trying to get, you know, either absolution from or, relief from.

00;31;13;20 - 00;31;20;05
Chris
And we, we, we just give ourselves a lot of times even unthinkingly to these things. and.

00;31;20;08 - 00;31;27;17
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, yeah, my phone makes a great security blanket. It takes me out of a lot of awkward situations.

00;31;27;20 - 00;31;43;08
Chris
Well, but I mean, like, in and there's, you know, I think this everybody gets hit by this one. Yeah. How often do you check your phone like we just do. We get in this habit we're doing. We're not even thinking about it, but for sure. Yeah.

00;31;43;11 - 00;31;47;12
Brenton
Yeah. All right. You got me.

00;31;47;15 - 00;31;49;05
Chris
I got myself.

00;31;49;07 - 00;32;09;02
Brenton
All right. So, in first Corinthians ten, Paul calls the church to flee from idols. and I was just kind of thinking through this. Is is that the solution? Is it always just a reactive approach that we we identify idols and then we just somehow run from it?

00;32;09;04 - 00;32;32;10
Chris
Well, I think if you, you read the context, actually, he's not simply saying just run from it. If you if you go back up, and he's all, you know, the that's verse, which one of it is, 14. but if you read the first 13 verses, he's actually talking about idolatry there too. And he says, you know, no temptation has overtaken you.

00;32;32;10 - 00;32;48;20
Chris
That's not common to man. God is faithful. He not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation, he also provide a way of escape that you may be able to endure it. And sometimes we we I think we think that's just in the moment. God is going to provide it. And it's just in the moment, like you're reacting.

00;32;48;23 - 00;33;13;12
Chris
I think if you read the whole context of first Corinthians ten, it's actually talking about a proactive approach so that if you're not, you're actually doing things and putting things into place, in your life where, you, you are, you're not even going to necessarily get into that that actual moment where you actually have to flee.

00;33;13;12 - 00;33;37;15
Chris
You know, there are times where that happens. so I don't think it Paul's actually talking there even primarily about a reactive approach. But I would say this and, and this comes from Tim Keller. He's got a great book, by the way, on idolatry called Counterfeit Gods. It's a relatively short book. Be a great read for everybody, where Keller says, we can't simply remove idols.

00;33;37;15 - 00;34;01;03
Chris
We have to be replace them. In other words, it's not enough to simply say, I'm going to stop, doing this or give myself to this. We're going to you have to give yourself to something else. So yes, there is the somewhat reactive. I'm going to flee from the idols, but you have to flee from it to something else.

00;34;01;05 - 00;34;35;25
Chris
And that that flee may be in the moment, certainly in a reactive way. And there are certainly times, but in the big picture, like I'm going to conscientiously make decisions and put things into place and, and here's where, by the way, forming habits is so important. And we can have a long conversation about idolatry and habits. Okay. Mark that on the the growing list of extra episodes at it, but our, our habits, form our idolatry and feed our idolatry, it's kind of cyclical.

00;34;35;27 - 00;35;00;06
Chris
And so the same thing, though, is true for, if our spiritual life, our habits form our a healthy spiritual life and they feed a healthy spiritual life. And so it it's this is why the habit of coming to corporate worship is so important. This is why the habit of spending time in the word and being in community with other believers is like, we're we're going to give ourselves to something.

00;35;00;06 - 00;35;23;13
Chris
Some things we got to choose, like we're going to give our thing self to things where we are serving and worshiping the Lord. And and as we give ourselves to those habits and we form those habits, they will actually feed them so that that's where our heart goes. And, and and we, we kind of begin to just more naturally do those things.

00;35;23;13 - 00;35;49;05
Chris
So we all have habits. We are there, but we just use the phone and we've got habit. And, you know, if you're going to break, an addiction to a phone habit. Not that I necessarily and a great example of, of this, but, you know, I do make some effort here is you've got to choose not not just to say, I'm going to stop, but what are you going to what are you to replace it with?

00;35;49;08 - 00;36;10;07
Chris
Yep. And so the challenge, you know, I go back one last time to the, to the, to the baseball thing. The Lord challenged me not simply to like, you know, you need to stop, you know, giving so much time to that. But but you need to do that so that you can give more time to to me.

00;36;10;09 - 00;36;10;28
Brenton
Yeah.

00;36;11;01 - 00;36;33;27
Chris
and, and so this is a, a great, I think, principle like the Christian life, Christian growth formation principle, is that, you know, we, we it's not simply stop doing this and it's not even primarily stop doing this, run from this. It's run to this, run to him.

00;36;33;29 - 00;36;46;15
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah, I love that that, you know, we don't we don't simply get rid of something. We replace it with something. And it reminds me of something. You talk about a lot that Thomas Chalmers had. I was.

00;36;46;15 - 00;36;48;02
Chris
Thinking this.

00;36;48;05 - 00;37;06;06
Brenton
Of power, of a new affection. And so, you know, if we don't, if we just try to get rid of something, we're going to fill it with something else anyway. So let's be intentional about what we fill that with. And it's, it's going to be, you know, the gospel is really what is going to feel better. Sure.

00;37;06;09 - 00;37;31;20
Brenton
And so let's be proactive. And in searching those things out and also replacing it. So your your last point on Sunday was about how we need to find our purpose in, in God's purpose. you talked a little about your call to ministry. I'm wondering if you can kind of expand on that story a little bit. specifically, you would you had said that you would never become a pastor.

00;37;31;26 - 00;37;35;01
Brenton
Yeah. So so what changed there?

00;37;35;04 - 00;37;53;03
Chris
Yeah. I mean, my mom taught me, a lot that I was going to be a pastor, and I was growing up and, just like, you know, some of those things. No, no, I'm not going to, to be interested in, you know, ever growing up as a pastor's, kid said she would never marry a pastor, which she did.

00;37;53;03 - 00;38;25;02
Chris
And, but then the joke actually became on, both of us. So, you know, some of it was, was God just providentially working through circumstances. And I was headed down a career path, that I was convinced was what was what he wanted me to do. I got a graduate degree. for that, I made a major move, for that, and then he just kind of pulled the rug out from underneath of me, literally.

00;38;25;08 - 00;38;43;09
Chris
And and I've told this story before, but I ended up without a job, with a not quite two year old, pregnant wife and, you know, I'm delivering phone books out of the trunk of my 1995 Chevy Lumina. so, that wasn't.

00;38;43;09 - 00;38;43;20
Brenton
Your career.

00;38;43;20 - 00;39;04;22
Chris
Goal? That was not my career, goal, plan whatsoever. And it wasn't in that moment, honestly, that, the church that even I were going to. Yeah, they came and they, they were growing and they needed some help, and I needed a job. And they said, hey, basically, you know, you need a job. We need some help.

00;39;04;22 - 00;39;31;23
Chris
Come and work here for a year, and then you can go find another job, and we'll find somebody else to place, you know, to, to fill in. And, that turned into, well, it's now turned into 20, almost 25 years. but the difference that I remember wrestling this was in 2000, and, and, and just like, Lord, what, what do you want me to do?

00;39;31;23 - 00;40;00;18
Chris
And he's like, well, I just, I want I'm giving the opportunity to spend, you know, your vocation, like, virtually every moment here, in, in helping to to build my church and being part of that. And, so I guess for me, it's always been my, my brother, his pastor up in Des Moines, from, when he was a little kid.

00;40;00;18 - 00;40;21;28
Chris
And I just remember him even preaching sermons to us at like 8 or 9 years old, I, I really didn't appreciate it then, at all. But, like, he was just really convinced, like, the Lord would have him to be a to to be a preacher, pastor and all that kind of stuff. And for me, it's always been, you know, where can I make the, the biggest impact for the Kingdom?

00;40;21;28 - 00;40;40;15
Chris
That's just what it's, it's been for me. And, and so really what it came down to is I just believe the Lord was leaving. He's like, this is the best way that I can. You can make an impact for the kingdom. And so I do want to be clear, I don't I don't think I said this as well as I do likes you.

00;40;40;21 - 00;41;07;25
Chris
You don't have to be a pastor to make a huge impact for the kingdom and your vocational calling, you know, whatever that calling is, you know, you you can make a huge impact for the kingdom and you can give yourself full time to kingdom to kingdom work there if you're doing it to honor the Lord and to looking to to be a light for him.

00;41;07;27 - 00;41;26;03
Chris
And, you know, for me, the Lord's just said, hey, for you. This is the path I have for you. And, I, I to be honest with you, I there's still days or like I don't I don't see this in me. I can't believe that the Lord has called me to this, especially to to where I'm at, today.

00;41;26;03 - 00;41;32;08
Chris
And yet, he he's made it really, really clear this is what he wants. So.

00;41;32;11 - 00;41;48;22
Brenton
Yeah, I think there's a lot of things we can probably draw out of that story. I think we see, like the book of Esther, we see God's providence again here. And. Sure. And even through hard circumstances, losing the job that, you know, it's hard to trust in those times. And yet God still had a plan for that.

00;41;48;28 - 00;42;13;18
Chris
Yeah. And I wouldn't you know, I don't think there's anything I would rather do. I can't see myself now doing anything differently. I can't even see myself, do being anywhere other than at Harmony, which, you know, that could change for other people may feel differently about that. And at some point, I'm sure.

00;42;13;20 - 00;42;14;17
Brenton
Well, I'm happy to be here.

00;42;14;21 - 00;42;39;24
Chris
Yeah. Well, it's it's simple. And I'm sure the elders will say, you know, it's it's time. and, you know, but, I just, you know, 13 years ago at this time, I like Burlington, Iowa, and let alone Danville, Iowa. I, I never heard of it before. Right. I've been to Iowa twice, and in my life, my brother's college graduation.

00;42;39;24 - 00;42;53;29
Chris
And for his wedding, and now it's home. And, like, I love it here. and so. Yeah, but I love and ultimately I love the church, and I love our people. So.

00;42;54;01 - 00;43;12;06
Brenton
Okay, so I'm going to end with one more question. You you ended your sermon by saying, don't think it's too late, that you've messed up too much, sin too much, run from God too much. First of all, do you think that this is a common feeling among Christians, that they've kind of gone too far?

00;43;12;09 - 00;43;27;09
Chris
Yeah, I, I do think it's it's relatively common consciously for believers. but I think it's more, more often, the case that it's, it's an unconscious.

00;43;27;11 - 00;43;28;14
Brenton
Interest,

00;43;28;16 - 00;44;02;18
Chris
That, not worthy, you know, not somebody that God can use. and and not necessarily because they've had a major screw up, like, had an affair or they've, you know, been divorced or they've, you know, maybe committed a crime or, or anything like that, but but just simply it's like I'm, I'm not good enough.

00;44;02;20 - 00;44;27;26
Chris
God, I don't I'm not I don't have any unique abilities or talents, and, like, I'm insignificant, I mean, important, like, why, how would God but God use me. and so, yeah, I, I, I, I was trying to encompass all of that. So some of it is like people like I would just kind of waste in my life or I've not serve the Lord or, you know, I somehow displeasing to him.

00;44;27;26 - 00;44;37;29
Chris
And that could be because a specific sin could be just simply, a low self-esteem issue like we talked about a couple of weeks ago. So yeah, I do.

00;44;38;01 - 00;44;46;28
Brenton
So how would you encourage someone in that position?

00;44;47;00 - 00;45;15;02
Chris
yeah, I, I think I would just point them back to the gospel and that God doesn't save us and he doesn't use us because we deserve it or because of, some goodness, talent ability in us. he does it because of his grace and his mercy, and the grace and mercy is available for for everyone.

00;45;15;05 - 00;45;37;23
Chris
And I've tried to paint a picture, the true picture of Esther. And I think that we do a disservice. And I think that, our media and, and, you know, like VeggieTales is done a real disservice. And I literally mean that, this is not a joke is like the you even watch the Esther VeggieTales and a lot of the other ones is like, they paint these pictures of these.

00;45;37;23 - 00;46;05;08
Chris
They're they're heroes and they're examples to us. And there are things about Esther that are an example for us. But but that's not the that's not most of the story is like she was a deeply flawed, deeply compromised woman. And Mordecai was a deeply flawed, deeply compromised man. And it's not like God was looking, hey, I need to find the best in the brightest of my people, the Jews here.

00;46;05;08 - 00;46;27;12
Chris
And I'm going to pick them because they've got it together. No. And this is the story of the the entire Old Testament. Yeah. It's God does not use the people who've got it together. Right. He uses the oftentimes the most broken people that there are. and that and we I think we just really have missed the boat a lot of times.

00;46;27;12 - 00;46;52;26
Chris
And even our preaching of the Old Testament like, we've, we've idolized these people. Yeah. And the point is, is like, no, God is so gracious and so good that he uses even the most broken of people. So I just would say that to use the whole and Paul talks about, you know, God delights in using the weak of the world and in his weakness or in our weakness.

00;46;52;26 - 00;46;56;27
Chris
He is strong. His power is made perfect in our weakness. That's so, so.

00;46;57;02 - 00;47;14;16
Brenton
Yeah, I really I really appreciated you bringing that out in the in the sermon this week of, you know, that is the the spot we find Esther and that she she would have been considered, you know, she's seen too much. She's run from from God too much. But yet God worked through her.

00;47;14;16 - 00;47;42;11
Chris
Yeah. The Jewish people, the Jewish scholars, you know, the I may say this are a lot of people do not have a high you have a high view of Esther at least early on in the story. and, and, for a variety of different reasons. But, I do think they're things. And we're even getting began to see it this past Sunday.

00;47;42;11 - 00;48;10;09
Chris
We'll see it more in the next couple weeks. Are there are things like, okay, yeah, Esther, there are things that we can learn and be inspired, but that's only after really she wakes up and and is reminded of God's grace. and then is empowered by that. And the same thing, if it can be true for her. a a teenage orphan Jewish girl who in that day was almost the lowest of the low.

00;48;10;11 - 00;48;14;28

then, you know, you can meet her for anything.

00;48;15;01 - 00;48;24;22
Brenton
Good. Well, or when the little along today. But, I hope that conversation was helpful. appreciate that, Chris. We will talk to you guys next week.