00;00;02;23 - 00;00;18;05
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper and biblical truth that transforms our lives.

00;00;18;07 - 00;00;43;00
Brenton
Thanks for joining us here further. coming out of the sermon this week, we decided that it would be really helpful to to you guys to do, a special episode just dedicated to lament. And so, we we ended up doing over an hour on this episode and decided that since, we want this to be a little more digestible for you, we decided to split this into two weeks.

00;00;43;00 - 00;01;04;05
Brenton
And so we're you're going to get the first part today, and then next Wednesday, the second part will be released. So, really, really hope that this is beneficial to you guys. I hope you enjoy. Welcome back to further. I'm Brenton Grim. I am, joined not only by Chris Carr today, but we also have two other, first timers here.

00;01;04;05 - 00;01;17;26
Brenton
So, we have Olivia Mitchell, and we have Michelle Garson here. So. Hey, guys. I so we are sitting here on a very gloomy and rainy Tuesday. so you might hear some background noise, but it's an.

00;01;17;26 - 00;01;20;22
Chris
Appropriate topic then for the day. Right?

00;01;20;24 - 00;01;49;01
Brenton
Yeah. It worked out well. okay. So I, I asked you both here. I think for good reason. both of you have shown, you know, an interest in the subject of lament. which is what we what we talked about in this last Sunday. And, and you've, you know, spent considerable time studying and practicing it. And so, I guess, first of all, I kind of just want to give you an opportunity to introduce yourselves.

00;01;49;03 - 00;01;54;27
Brenton
so people know who you are, and then we'll go from there. Michelle, why don't you start?

00;01;55;00 - 00;02;24;05
Michelle
I'm Michelle Garson, and, how to introduce myself. I've been, following Jesus since I was 13, so that's like, three decades now. And, I'm married. I've got a couple boys, 13 and three. And that age gap is part of my lament story. been attending Harmony for about ten years, and, we are getting ready to move out of the area.

00;02;24;05 - 00;02;27;25
Michelle
Another part of my lament story.

00;02;27;27 - 00;02;29;24
Chris
Ours too, by the way. So.

00;02;30;01 - 00;02;39;25
Michelle
Yeah. Thank you. I am, just a follower of Jesus who is learning more and more about how much he loves me and how closely he walks with me.

00;02;39;28 - 00;02;41;26
Chris
What do you do for a living?

00;02;42;02 - 00;03;18;26
Michelle
So I do have a job. I'm a therapist, a mental health therapist, and I have a private practice, and, I've been doing that for about 13 years. and had a lot of opportunity to walk alongside people as they lament. and then, recently start teaching people how to lament. and also just in the last few months, taking an interest in helping people, identify ways that they are seeing God inaccurately and help them to start see him more accurately.

00;03;18;28 - 00;03;21;01
Michelle
so they can draw closer to him.

00;03;21;03 - 00;03;23;19
Brenton
Great. Thanks, Michelle. Olivia.

00;03;23;21 - 00;03;43;06
Olivia
Yeah. So my name is Olivia Mitchell, and I, have lived in southeast Iowa for the last five years. I'm originally from Louisville, Kentucky, and I'm married to Matt Mitchell. He is the campus pastor at the Fort Madison campus. and I have the privilege of being on staff to working with our discipleship ministry.

00;03;43;08 - 00;04;03;23
Brenton
Yeah. Great. All right. Well, again, I appreciate you guys coming. I want to start, just for, you know, in kind of a broad way. Why do you think that you guys became interested in this topic in the first place? How did how did this come about for you guys?

00;04;03;25 - 00;04;23;21
Olivia
You minister at this time? Okay. yeah. So I was first introduced to lament in Bible school. and, you know, I thought it was interesting as I was studying the Psalms, but it didn't totally click with me then. I think mainly because I really hadn't suffered a lot. And so, but when I was 20, my mom passed away.

00;04;23;21 - 00;04;57;21
Olivia
She had stage four, nonsmokers, lung cancer. She was only 45 at the time. And, that was a really dark place for me. And and just feeling lost with my faith. I had I had been a believer for a long time. had had a very close relationship with Jesus. But, all of a sudden I didn't have words for things that I was feeling, and, I didn't know I was allowed to feel things, but I was feeling them anyways, and, remembered lament and kind of pulled that back out and was just drawn to the Psalms.

00;04;57;24 - 00;05;14;29
Olivia
I felt like for a couple of years I just lived in the Psalms. and especially the Lament Psalms, and they just became a real place of healing in my life. to where now, today, I lament about little things and big things, and they just, have been really impactful for me.

00;05;15;02 - 00;05;17;00
Brenton
Great. Michelle.

00;05;17;02 - 00;05;42;21
Michelle
So, I mentioned in my introduction of myself that there's an age gap. So, that age gap was, caused by, a few miscarriages. We also had miscarriages before our first born that, the third miscarriage after our son, was a complete. The pregnancy was a complete surprise. it felt like God had just reached down and handed us this gift.

00;05;42;24 - 00;06;07;17
Michelle
it wasn't something that we were asking for, and I, strangely, didn't really worry. near as much as I had in previous pregnancies. And I just thought it was going to turn out great this time. And, I, one day, just suddenly, lost all signs of pregnancy, and, began to suspect that I was miscarrying, and, in fact, I was.

00;06;07;17 - 00;06;40;11
Michelle
And it was, almost as devastating, as the first one that I obviously wasn't expecting at all, because that would never happen to me. and, the timing of it all lined up with Pastor Chris's sermon series on prayer. and, just just a couple weeks after miscarrying, I was sitting in church, very raw and, heartbroken and bewildered.

00;06;40;14 - 00;07;10;14
Michelle
And, it was Sanctity of Life Sunday, which is historically been a hard time for me. because of our experience with pregnancy. and it was, the day that Pastor Chris spoke on the first time, and, I was just at the right spot in my life. The Holy Spirit, you know, lined it all up, and I soaked up every word, and it became a part of, probably my everyday life for several months after that.

00;07;10;16 - 00;07;30;24
Michelle
And then after I experienced the benefits of going to God with my heart brokenness, it became a part of my practice. And then I got to walk alongside other people as they learned how to lament, and see, how we could all draw closer to God, not just during the good times, but even more so during the hard times.

00;07;30;26 - 00;07;55;09
Brenton
Yeah. That's great. thanks for sharing that, guys. so, you know, given those stories and you're not the only ones that have gone through things like that, right? We all we all have those things in our past that we've struggled with. Why do you think that this is a topic that's been so neglected in the church?

00;07;55;12 - 00;08;17;06
Olivia
I think Chris mentioned this on Sunday, but we feel uncomfortable with pain. when someone shares even today, if someone shares something hard, I have to fight through the urge to not, you know, encourage them or I want them to feel better. And I don't know what that is in us, but we we just don't like sitting with something that's hard.

00;08;17;06 - 00;08;32;05
Olivia
And I think that totally relates to our relationship with God, that we think that we're supposed to feel good and we're supposed to rejoice, which we are. but we're just uncomfortable with expressing those harder things. Yeah.

00;08;32;08 - 00;08;46;02
Brenton
Yeah. It's good. okay, so I'm just going to throw this out to all of you to get kind of started on this conversation. So what is lament? Let's let's define it first.

00;08;46;05 - 00;08;51;09
Chris
Why don't you go, Olivia? Because you spoke on this, last Monday. how did you define it?

00;08;51;15 - 00;09;08;26
Olivia
Well, I stole it from. I stole Mark broke up's, definition. He's a pastor, and he defines it as a prayer in pain that leads to trust. So it's a prayer that we pray. in the midst of our struggle, in the midst of our heartache. but it leads us to a place of trust.

00;09;08;29 - 00;09;24;25
Chris
Yeah. Maybe a good time to give a shout out to his his book, that, he wrote several years ago that that's, from my perspective, the best, the best book that I read. and, I'm struggling to remember the name of that.

00;09;24;25 - 00;09;25;10
Olivia
Clouds.

00;09;25;10 - 00;09;46;04
Chris
Deep mercy cloud, city of mercy. I should turn around. It's on my bookcase over here. Just look at it. but, yeah. It's fantastic. Mark's a pastor in, Indianapolis, and, it's been really, really beneficial. I defined it a little bit differently on on Sunday, but it's essentially the same. I use the word hope instead of trust.

00;09;46;04 - 00;10;10;23
Chris
And and so those are very, closely related things. So, but it's a prayer in pain. in a prayer, obviously, is always to God. But we're expressing like I talked about, we're expressing our pain, our sorrow and confusion. I think that's important. there it's a prayer in pain. But but but I think that expression word is important because we were telling him about it.

00;10;10;26 - 00;10;31;10
Chris
and and the, the end goal of a man is that we're going to trust him or we're going to praise him. We're going to find hope in, in, in our pain and in our hurt, in our sorrow and confusion. So it's not just about expressing how, you know, this pain, sorrow and confusion and all that kind of stuff that has benefits as part of the process.

00;10;31;13 - 00;10;50;00
Chris
But the goal is not just simply to get it out, is to get it out and communicate with him in such a way that, we find hope and, and, you know, we're able to praise him and worship him and trust him in the, in the midst of that.

00;10;50;03 - 00;11;00;02
Brenton
It's good. Michelle, maybe I'll ask you this. Why? and you can, you can use your own experience if you want. But why is it so important? Why have you found it important in your life?

00;11;00;04 - 00;11;23;01
Michelle
Yeah. Well, we know that unprocessed emotions don't go away. They they stay inside, and then they usually just come up later when you don't want them to. So, it's important to process emotions, but, David Kessler, he's a secular grief expert, but he describes grief as, a different kind of emotion in that it requires a witness to be processed.

00;11;23;03 - 00;11;47;24
Michelle
So a lot of our emotions we can process on our own. But when we experience grief, that's the kind of emotion that, needs, some somebody to witness it while we process it to be with us in the in the grief. and so when we lament, it gives us a way to process the emotions and it gives us the best witness ever.

00;11;47;24 - 00;11;50;03
Michelle
And that's God himself.

00;11;50;06 - 00;12;10;14
Chris
Yeah. I just want to add something here. And we again, have to be careful because, as we talked about before we started this, it could be a very long discussion. And especially once Michelle and I get talking about these, these things. but, you know, those those unprocessed emotion that I talked about on Sunday where they don't die, they just get buried alive.

00;12;10;14 - 00;12;36;12
Chris
But and they do eventually come out. But we also need to recognize is they actually direct our behavior even when we're unaware of them. Like there are, if you think about it in terms of an, an iceberg, you know, 90% of an iceberg is under the water. And, a lot of our life tends to be unaware, unconscious or unaware of it.

00;12;36;12 - 00;12;59;08
Chris
And it has a lot to do with our hearts. Are pain or difficulties. And if we don't actually learn to lament them, and to process those things, they're going to, direct the way that we, we, they are not going to they are really for all of us in some way. And that that's one of the big reasons is so important to do this.

00;12;59;10 - 00;13;29;02
Brenton
okay. So practically, you know, you would you would said earlier that, you know, the goal of this, the it's not just to express your, your feelings, but there's a, there's an end goal in mind. And that is to, I mean, essentially communion with God. Right? We're we're expressing our relationship with God and we're communicating. I guess for you ladies, what what has been the outcome as you've as you've done this more?

00;13;29;04 - 00;14;01;22
Olivia
I mean, I feel like for me, it's how I've healed from deep grief. and then I, I would definitely say, like, just deeper intimacy with the Lord, even from you going from a place where you're questioning God and then ending in, just like, resting and what his plan is, even though you still don't understand it. And I mean, I still have to keep doing that, but it's not it's not a magic potion that you sit down and do one time and then you're completely, you know, resting in God's trust.

00;14;01;22 - 00;14;18;13
Olivia
But, but it works. I mean, when you take your heart to him and you're, you begin to express those things to him, something happens and he, he he becomes closer to you and, and does he'll feel those pains, I think.

00;14;18;16 - 00;14;47;25
Michelle
Yeah. Yeah, I would, yeah. Just agree with everything Olivia said. For me personally, that specific time of lament, there in early 2019 was, a kind of a turning point for me because I, I always knew that God was near, in my head I believed it. And, but when I was really hurting, when I was really hurting, hurting, I wasn't able to feel it in the moment.

00;14;48;02 - 00;15;05;13
Michelle
But there were there was a time later when I looked back and I could see that Jesus was carrying me through. So I'm lamenting to God I wasn't really feeling it. I wasn't feeling his nearness or his comfort because the hurt was so big. Maybe because I was so new lamenting I didn't even know what to look for.

00;15;05;15 - 00;15;29;16
Michelle
But there was a time later where I could look back and see that Jesus was holding me up and grieving with me, that he was just as heartbroken. Probably more so because he knows how far off our experience that we're having here is from God's original design. So he was even more heartbroken than I was about what had just happened in our family.

00;15;29;18 - 00;15;59;18
Michelle
And, I now walk through my day to day life almost constantly, just with this awareness that he's right there. And, lamenting is something that made the one of the biggest griefs of my life into, something I can turn back and remember God's nearness, his faithfulness to me. And, it energizes me, really, to make it through every day.

00;15;59;19 - 00;16;03;26
Michelle
Little hard things, and big, I hope.

00;16;03;29 - 00;16;16;07
Chris
Are you seeing the. Limit, has enabled you to be able to look back at the hardest times in your life, and they've become, in some ways, the most special times in your life.

00;16;16;09 - 00;16;44;11
Michelle
Yeah. And as a mom, it's, it's sometimes hard to say that that, like, I mean, I I'll just I'll say it straight out that that that last loss, it gave me a nearness of Jesus that I wouldn't trade just a mom. It's really hard to say that because we we feel like our children are more important than anything, but the nearness of the Lord is more important to me than than the.

00;16;44;13 - 00;17;00;19
Michelle
That was my loss of twins. I didn't mention that before, but that was the loss of twins and the the nearness of the Lord is more important to me than than the opportunity to have kept them. obviously, the fact that I get to see them again in heaven makes it a little easier to say that. But it's hard to say that.

00;17;00;19 - 00;17;10;02
Michelle
But it's true. I, I know he's right here in a way that I never knew before, and I would not give that up.

00;17;10;04 - 00;17;39;20
Chris
can. Yeah. Can I just comment on that for a second? It is very powerful and and deserves some more digging into. I think, Michelle is pointing us to is, is that. Well, that gives us the opportunity to be known. It's not just to know God, but to be known by God. And that's our deepest really need is to experience, truly be known for for who we are and what's going on in our inside of us.

00;17;39;22 - 00;18;02;13
Chris
and, and so, and this is, foreign to, I think so many of us have was has been foreign to me for a long period of, of my life. And yet, our, our need to yes, we talk a lot about in the church about knowing God and knowing God, but, you know, we love because he first loved us.

00;18;02;13 - 00;18;25;14
Chris
And and so we, we can only know God is we we are experiencing being known by him. It's a two way street. And what meant offers us the opportunity to to to experience is to be known by him in a way that helps us to know him more, which is what we were created for. and it's very counter all of this is very counterintuitive.

00;18;25;16 - 00;18;32;12
Chris
and that's why we have to give room in the church to practice, to practice it, do a better job.

00;18;32;15 - 00;18;53;14
Brenton
It's interesting you say that that that God, you know, it gives him the opportunity to know us. But, you know, we would all confess that he knows us more than we know ourselves. Right? And so, you know, is that is that just a show of our vulnerability? That is that is making the improvement there? What are you so well.

00;18;53;16 - 00;19;18;16
Chris
Sorry about the word no. Here we by. No. So he knows sure. He he knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows about us better than we know ourselves. But no, he is is in terms of a relationship, you know, in the in the Old Testament and talks about Adam knew his wife and she she conceived the point isn't simply there that they they had sex.

00;19;18;18 - 00;19;49;29
Chris
The point is, is that there's an intimacy, that's coming to bears a relational, significant relational component. So when I talk about being known by God, it means like he he is against a two way street. It's like there's a connection there. and we all want to be we all want to be known and accepted for at the same time.

00;19;50;01 - 00;20;09;13
Chris
what? And again, I, maybe we're going off here a little bit, but, I think it's I think it's, I think it's very. Well, it relates very well to what we're talking about here is, is that we want we want to be known, but we're afraid to be known because we think we're going to be rejected.

00;20;09;15 - 00;20;20;13
Chris
Well, the many offices, the upper. So the possibility is to be known at our most vulnerable and not to be rejected, but actually to be accepted.

00;20;20;15 - 00;20;25;02
Brenton
Yeah. Okay, so.

00;20;25;05 - 00;20;32;02
Chris
we may start need to start our own podcast on this issue, but anyway. But do we need another one that the ladies do it. Yeah.

00;20;32;06 - 00;20;57;01
Brenton
So you guys can use this room whenever. I, as a, as I did some thinking over this, I think that some people struggle and maybe most people struggle to, to do this just because complaining seems disrespect for to God. Right. and that's something we see often in the Psalms. Is David, like, actually complaining? He's he's angry.

00;20;57;03 - 00;21;14;17
Brenton
where, I guess what would you say to someone that that has that fear of doing that? And then also, where do you think the line is between, like our proper complaining, our expressing our frustrations? And then where's the line of like disrespecting God in that.

00;21;14;19 - 00;21;39;05
Olivia
I so I remember being in Bible school and this was just a few months after my mom had passed and a professor said, you're not allowed to be angry at God. And in that moment I immediately got tears in my eyes because in that moment I was angry with God. and looking back, I felt like it was an unhelpful thing to say.

00;21;39;08 - 00;21;58;15
Olivia
Because what if you are? What if you're angry with God? The only answer, the only solution, is to take that to him and talk to him about it. And then he's going to change your heart, and you're going to be humbled and and realize, like Joe, like, who am I to ask God, any any questions? But you have to go to him and ask those questions.

00;21;58;17 - 00;22;18;26
Olivia
and so I feel like when people say that, it doesn't feel super helpful when people say, you're not allowed to be angry with God because there might be moments where you feel angry with God and you need to talk to him about it. and I, I mentioned this on Monday night at the women's event, but Paul Miller, in his book of Praying Life, says that that's the wrong question.

00;22;18;26 - 00;22;26;23
Olivia
The right question is what's on your heart, and whatever's on your heart is what you need to talk to God about.

00;22;26;25 - 00;22;49;14
Chris
Yeah, yeah. Not allowed is really unhelpful. I mean, it doesn't mean it's okay, right? Yeah. But not allowed is like, okay, well, then I can't even admit that I actually am. That's what that's what the effect is, is when you say when we say things like that. So yeah. Good. Because it didn't take your anger, it didn't take your anger away when you said you're not allowed to be.

00;22;49;16 - 00;23;12;08
Olivia
You know what. What took my anger away was taking it to the Lord was lamenting. And I eventually I did get to a place where I repented of, of feeling like I was entitled to have my mom or having, you know, other things that I was angry about. I don't deserve anything. None of us do. but it took me taking that to the Lord.

00;23;12;11 - 00;23;39;01
Olivia
And so, yeah, I, I agree, I think it's I think it's unhelpful. I think some people end up deconstructing their faith when they feel angry at God, or they have these questions and doubts and they're told, you can't feel that way, you can't ask those questions. And then instead of taking them to the Lord, they, you know, try to find wisdom outside of the church or God's Word, and they they try to, internalize it or process it on their own without taking it to God.

00;23;39;01 - 00;23;45;22
Olivia
And I think a lot of people end up, you know, deconstructing their faith. And I think that's a big reason why,

00;23;45;25 - 00;24;14;09
Chris
Yeah, that actually would be a great topic to talk about. I think I mentioned that at the 830 Burlington service and didn't at the, the later service, but I really do believe that Olivia is exactly right. I think a lot of the and they're not just kids anymore, but that that so-called deconstruct to leave the faith is at the root of that is because they weren't allowed to actually have their questions and struggle and wrestle with and, and doubt.

00;24;14;11 - 00;24;24;00
Chris
and they weren't that wasn't given room and space. And so those like we talked about the pains don't and hurts don't go away. The questions don't go away either.

00;24;24;02 - 00;25;04;10
Michelle
I think the one thing that I would add to that is that, God already knows if we're having those kinds of thoughts or feelings. And so do not go into him with them really doesn't make any sense because they're already he already knows, and when we go to him with them is when he has the opportunity to do something about them, and also going to him with those hard emotions and those hard questions shows that we're putting our faith in him, in that, in that moment, by going to him, we're showing that we trust him, and we're showing that we see him as the source of, what we need and as the

00;25;04;10 - 00;25;27;28
Michelle
the source of the answers to the questions that we have. So I, I think everything is worth going to him about the line that I give my, my clients for, like, how do you decide what to lament about is is it less than the Garden of Eden? That's what you're experiencing, less than what you would have experienced had the fall never happened?

00;25;27;29 - 00;25;38;19
Michelle
And if the answer to that is yes, then you can lament about it. And because that's that's all worth lamenting that everything outside of everything caused by the fall is worth lamenting.

00;25;38;21 - 00;26;12;20
Brenton
I want to come back to that because I actually had a question come in about that. But, we'll get back to that in a little bit. Chris, a little bit along the same lines as you were talking there. you mentioned on Sunday that, you know, Asaph didn't skip the steps. He he didn't go directly to the gospel, because, you know, we have we have a process to work through, but this does it is common advice in the church, right, that when somebody comes to us, a lot of times our our first response is, well, you know, there's hope in the gospel, right?

00;26;12;20 - 00;26;24;28
Brenton
And we'll kind of talk through it starting at that point. How should we, as the church, respond to people that are experiencing hard things?

00;26;25;01 - 00;26;52;27
Chris
Yeah. it's taken me a long time to come to this realization, but I think we need to do, much better job of listening, trying to empathize with people before we get to, you know, all sad things are going to come and true. He's going to wipe away every tear from your eye, which is I don't mean, you know, to say that.

00;26;52;27 - 00;27;28;00
Chris
And you know, sarcastic way. I mean, those are that those things are absolutely true. but that doesn't change. you know, the fact that Michel just lost, her babies. Yeah. And, and there's a time to get there, and we have. Right. but what she needs from from me or from her friends or from other people is not to simply wash over the pain and the hurt that she's feeling.

00;27;28;01 - 00;27;52;22
Chris
She needs room to be able to feel that and express that. and I think when we just go to the gospel, really what we're actually not, straight to it. without giving room there, we're not actually, being faithful to actually what we see in the Bible. So that's the most important thing. but we're also not going to actually be able to help, helping them to heal.

00;27;52;24 - 00;28;14;27
Chris
Now, we always want to eventually get to see God because remember, it's it's we're well, we're looking for hope. That's where we want to end with hope. And hope only comes from, you know, the gospel, but, I don't I don't think you actually get to the hope if you don't walk through the and face the pain and the hurt, because then you don't need what, what do you need the hope for?

00;28;14;27 - 00;28;28;12
Chris
If there isn't the pain and hurt in the first place, it goes back to the fall. If there's not the fall, you know there's got to be being in there. Why do we need why don't we need the gospel? Why do we need the hope? And I think, you know, I talked about the the phrase, you know, God is good all the time and all the time.

00;28;28;12 - 00;28;48;04
Chris
God is good. I could even imagine there are people in the body as we were saying, that not knowing what's coming or going that seems really, you know, it doesn't really do anything for me. Or they may even reacted negatively to it because where they're at is that I don't think God's good. I don't feel like God is good.

00;28;48;04 - 00;29;10;28
Chris
And you're just glibly having everybody repeat this. It's true. And there's a space and time for that. But and I take, I take, you know, Paul said Corinthians six, sorrowful yet always rejoicing and he and he talks about the past this week were carrying around the death of Jesus just a little way. So so that the life of Jesus may be evident in us.

00;29;11;00 - 00;29;30;10
Chris
But the life of the life of Jesus becomes evident in us as we're carrying around the death of Jesus. So it's it's not in and, one or the other and, you know, you and I have talked a little bit about it, this, brand. But what I found is, is like in my life, I wasn't able to read.

00;29;30;12 - 00;29;57;28
Chris
And this is another counterintuitive thing. I have able to be able to be rejoicing and be thankful for the good things that God has done in my life as much as I should have, because I actually wasn't lamenting like when I when the door and in my heart began to open to my pain in my heart, I was able to do something with it that actually opened up my heart to be able to rejoice more.

00;29;58;00 - 00;30;00;00
Chris
but again, yeah.

00;30;00;02 - 00;30;07;18
Brenton
So good. either one of you have any thoughts on that? Just how to be on the receiving end of that?

00;30;07;21 - 00;30;37;08
Michelle
I just want to add to what what Chris said, like when he talked about like being with somebody in the grief, listening, fully empathizing. But when we do that, we're not just, impacting that moment right there, but we're giving people, a way to understand God and his response to them in their grief, because we're all relational beings and we learn through relationship.

00;30;37;11 - 00;30;59;21
Michelle
And are we? We don't have to get into it, but our brains are formed by a relationship. And so when we've been in the church for decades and in our families and, and a lot of times gotten the message that, you know, we don't talk about that. That's not okay. It's, we're not going to go there.

00;30;59;23 - 00;31;24;11
Michelle
then it can be really hard to take that to God. But when you have somebody sit across from you, or next to you, and listen to your grief and listen to you lament and join you in that grief, then you now have a way of seeing God open up to you that you didn't have before. So it's so powerful to do that for people because they think they can't take this stuff to people than they definitely can't take it to God.

00;31;24;11 - 00;31;35;05
Michelle
But if they can experience that from another human, then they're more likely to be able to experience that from God and were like opening up a door for them in their relationship with God by being that for them in that moment.

00;31;35;12 - 00;31;36;13
Chris
Yeah. It's fantastic.

00;31;36;13 - 00;31;54;14
Olivia
It's really beautiful. It reminds me of something I remember I read, from Dane Orland. He, he talks about Romans 828, how that's kind of a go to passage that people use when people are suffering. You know, that God is going to work. All of our pain and all of the all these hard things we're experiencing for our good and for his glory.

00;31;54;14 - 00;32;18;10
Olivia
And, you know, we kind of slap Romans 828 on, on people when they're suffering. he says later in Romans 12, it says, weep with those who weep. And he makes this point that just because Romans eight comes first in the book of Romans doesn't mean it should come first in our counseling or in our comforting of other people that, like when we weep with those who weep, eventually they will be pointed back to the gospel.

00;32;18;10 - 00;32;24;11
Olivia
But you can't miss that. That step of just sitting with them and letting them be where they are for a while.

00;32;24;13 - 00;32;26;11
Michelle
And then.

00;32;26;14 - 00;32;37;27
Brenton
Good. just a point of clarification. I guess what both of you, Chris and Michelle, use the word empathy. What? What do you mean by that? What? It's what does that look like?

00;32;37;29 - 00;33;14;04
Michelle
You think the counselor would just have, like, a ready definition? I would say when you're empathizing with someone, you're joining them in their emotion to a certain extent. You're letting what they feel affect you in some way. You don't have to ride the whole wave with them, but you're not sheltering yourself from it. And, and you're communicating that to them in some way if it's just by taking the time or I'm just your facial expression or I mean, I'm constantly tearing up.

00;33;14;04 - 00;33;20;01
Michelle
So it's very obvious, but not everybody has that.

00;33;20;03 - 00;33;42;19
Chris
Yeah, I, I think it's feeling what the other person is feeling. Or I would say it's the attempt to put yourself in their shoes, so to speak, in, to feel, their, their pain. And obviously you're not going to be able to feel it fully and it's not going and probably shouldn't impact you the same way that it impacts them.

00;33;42;19 - 00;34;07;26
Chris
But it it's like, I'm, I'm sorry that you've gone through that, that it must, you know, be really painful. I can't imagine and you know, again, we but we with those who who weep, it's hard to be empathetic and, very few people who have ever met Chris Carr would say that. That's so what it is.

00;34;07;28 - 00;34;12;00
Chris
I have to work really hard at it. But, I'm trying.

00;34;12;03 - 00;34;14;00
Brenton
So essentially compassion, right?

00;34;14;00 - 00;34;34;10
Chris
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, sure, sure. And I think some people are more naturally empathetic just the way that God wires them and so, and others or less. But, just like pretty much everything in, in the Christian life, they're things that we are, you know, God is kind of more wired us to be like that and gifted us that way.

00;34;34;10 - 00;34;38;10
Chris
And then there are things that we've got to make more effort at. so.

00;34;38;11 - 00;35;03;00
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, I've just seen the word described as, you know, like the, the listener is like trying to conjure up bad, bad memories that they have just to match that, that, you know, the, the place, the, the person talking is and then doesn't seem healthy to me. So I think just an idea of, like, being compassionate with people that are, that are struggling.

00;35;03;07 - 00;35;28;07
Chris
In other words, here is, is trying to a tune to the other person. So to, you know, you're trying to tune yourself to what they are actually feeling and where they are at in our tendency, especially as helpers. and like me in particular as a pastor, we can get into the fix it mode. And I think men are particularly prone to this.

00;35;28;09 - 00;36;00;03
Chris
like, we want to fix the we want to fix the problem and, and so and we, we do that trying to be helpful and and and and and all that and and there's a time for that. But, I think being empathetic attuned is like, let me let me first of all, try to at least give this person space to express what they're feeling and to try to, to, to in some ways to feel at least let it impact me in my emotional state.

00;36;00;05 - 00;36;10;18
Brenton
This will conclude part one. Join us next week for the second part of this discussion. Thanks a lot guys.

00;36;10;20 - 00;36;10;24
Brenton
For.