00;00;10;11 - 00;00;39;02
Chris
You. Swear. You got to know God's word and why? Theology really, truly does matter. Why I loved to preach God's word and why I try to do it so passionately. Because it's not just facts or things that that don't really matter to the day to day program of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

00;00;39;05 - 00;00;44;26
Brenton
Welcome back to further. I am Brittany Grimm. Chris Carr's here with me today. How are you doing?

00;00;44;28 - 00;00;46;24
Chris
Pretty good. It's been a busy week already.

00;00;46;26 - 00;00;57;13
Brenton
Yeah, well that's true. okay, so coming off of this Sunday, you, started your sermon with a bang.

00;00;57;16 - 00;00;59;02
Chris
Yes. Yeah.

00;00;59;04 - 00;01;20;05
Brenton
You, talked a little bit about politics, and, so I guess, on the front end of this, I just want to say, I think that both of us agree that this could use a little more, I don't know, exposition on. On what? Your, what you're trying to say. And, you know, I think just the conversation.

00;01;20;05 - 00;01;42;06
Brenton
It's a good time to have that. and so what we plan to do is next week sometime, we got to work out the schedule, but, next week, we'll be releasing another episode. that's going to be solely talking about this issue, and hopefully it's timely right before the election and kind of give, give you guys something to think about as we go into the season.

00;01;42;08 - 00;01;44;03
Brenton
So,

00;01;44;06 - 00;01;45;23
Chris
Not today, not today.

00;01;45;24 - 00;01;47;08
Brenton
Let's talk about.

00;01;47;10 - 00;01;50;28
Chris
Something more, more important. John 316.

00;01;51;00 - 00;02;22;14
Brenton
Yes. Yeah. John 316 is, it's it's a little more uplifting than the other conversation. So, okay, so let's start with you. You had said we cannot even begin to understand and appreciate how great this love is until we first understand and appreciate how rightly, angry he is over our sin. So really, you're saying that we need to really understand what the problem is before we can really understand or appreciate the solution to it?

00;02;22;14 - 00;02;26;12
Brenton
And so why? Why do you think that is?

00;02;26;15 - 00;03;00;23
Chris
Well, it's say on a regular basis. before we really get the good news, we got to get the bad news first. And the good news is only truly good if you understand why, why you need it in the first place. and, so I think understanding the, the, you know, we can naturally think and I think this is the way the human heart, you know, is in this natural kind of state, as we we tend to think we are lovable.

00;03;00;23 - 00;03;39;04
Chris
We we, we deserve God to love us. and, that just. Yeah, natural. Of course. God loves the world, right? and that that's just the way kind of things should be. And, and so, until we understand that God doesn't love us because we are in and of ourselves, lovable or do lovable things, that, that that really shows us how great his love truly is when there's there's really nothing, that we do, that really merits that, that love.

00;03;39;04 - 00;04;01;27
Chris
And yet he gives it to us anyway. Now, I do want to clarify something that doesn't mean that, there aren't good things about us. It doesn't mean that we don't have an inherent value and worth. We are. We are made in his image. And, like, there are, everybody should be should be loved because we are made in the image of God.

00;04;01;27 - 00;04;27;14
Chris
And we should. We should love people. We should love others. we should even understand our own inherent value and worth. But what I'm talking about here is there's nothing like in our actions, nothing that we have, we have done that, merits favor or merits God to love us. In fact, exactly the opposite. The message of the Bible is very, very clear in the New Testament is there's an explicit the Old Testament.

00;04;27;15 - 00;04;36;13
Chris
We see example after example of that about just how, you know, the heart is desperately wicked. Who can know?

00;04;36;13 - 00;04;43;18
Brenton
And so, yeah, I appreciate that because it's it's not just the actions we do. Right. It's it's the heart. Yeah. It's who we are.

00;04;43;20 - 00;05;14;17
Chris
Right. So I mean, I want to be clear, like my, my, my kids, you know, my grandkids like, I, I love them because they they are lovable, horrible. There are there are things that are just lovely about them. And that's that is true. There are lovely things about human beings. But in terms of meriting God to show us his love and grace and justice and his Son Jesus, Jesus didn't come and die because we deserved it.

00;05;14;19 - 00;05;24;11
Chris
That's the point. he came as a an expression of how much God loves us, despite the fact that we don't deserve it.

00;05;24;13 - 00;05;38;26
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. So given that what what implications does does this idea have on, you know, our preaching, our evangelism, our discipleship? How how does recognizing this change those things?

00;05;38;28 - 00;06;08;06
Chris
Well, I think that, I want to suggest that one of the reasons that from a preaching standpoint, that preaching is often, ineffective, can often be kind of weak. sometimes even manby pamby is because we're afraid to say some of the things that I tried to bring out on Sunday that the the Bible clearly says, you know, we're going to see it in two weeks.

00;06;08;08 - 00;06;35;07
Chris
John three and, basically, with John just kind of putting a bow on the whole chapter and he says, whoever believes in the son has eternal life. Whoever does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. and so, I think the implications for our preaching, really all the things that you just mentioned, especially our preaching, is, is like, we cannot rid ourselves of the of the wrath of God.

00;06;35;07 - 00;07;07;11
Chris
And there are whole denominations and then the whole lot of churches that just refer you will never hear the word wrath that this, this idea is abhorrent, to them. And yet when you do that, you, when you minimize the wrath of God, you minimize the love of God because I again, I mean, this is clear to me, hopefully is a clear to the the more we don't deserve God's love, the greater the magnitude of his love is for us and the greatness of of him giving it to us even though we don't deserve it.

00;07;07;14 - 00;07;30;22
Brenton
Yeah. So just to kind of drive this point home of kind of where we're at in today's religious landscape, there's, I don't know if I've talked about this on the show before or not, but, Ligonier puts out a, kind of a survey every two years to that just has, theological questions and then they get the responses back.

00;07;30;22 - 00;08;00;18
Brenton
But one of them, in 2022, was everyone is born innocent in the eyes of God. And the results back on that, or 71% of of adults and 65% of evangelicals agree with that statement. And so that's just I think it's a reflection of our culture that we don't want to admit that we are we are sinful, that we are not deserving of of grace, of God's love.

00;08;00;20 - 00;08;05;07
Brenton
but I think it's just kind of alarming to see the number of people that would agree with that statement.

00;08;05;14 - 00;08;30;05
Chris
Yeah. And I kind of maybe hinted at this, a little bit. But I think the reality is, is that everybody in their heart of hearts knows and, and in some way even functions out of this idea that we're not innocent and that we don't deserve to be loved. or to for God to love us in the way that he does love us.

00;08;30;07 - 00;08;52;03
Chris
because we are always trying to justify ourselves. Or we are. We are operating out of guilt. We're trying to cover our shame. and, and I think a lot of this goes back to the Genesis chapter three and Adam and Eve sin. And what do they do? We've talked about this before, but they they run and hide and then they try to cover themselves.

00;08;52;06 - 00;09;21;16
Chris
And everybody is trying to do that in some way. and, and whether that's with you know, overwork, money, you know, addictions, you know, even just simply binge watching and like, given technology, we're just trying to make ourselves. Okay. Yeah. And that's just a, that's an indication that we know. We know it's no matter what we say in our hearts, we are we are, not we're not.

00;09;21;16 - 00;09;49;09
Chris
Okay. Yeah. And we're not, deserving of of God actually extending us. Grace. Yeah. okay. Now accepting, I mean, knowing that and then accepting that admitting, admitting that is there are two different things. But but but back to your original question. That's why the implications of us bringing this out, hopefully in a gracious way, is so important in, in our preaching, evangelism and discipleship.

00;09;49;13 - 00;09;50;09
Brenton
Yeah.

00;09;50;12 - 00;10;10;16
Chris
Because as I started out with, nothing will make a bigger impact on your life than truly understanding how much God loves you. And I think that's really something we I think we can always grow in more and more, and you're never going to really begin to get that until you understand, like, oh, I really don't deserve for him to love me.

00;10;10;19 - 00;10;35;11
Brenton
well, and it's a process of sanctification, too. And the more you understand your sin, the more you, you know, recognize more of your sin. Right? Right. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Gives you an idea of where you're at for God. Okay. So I want to spend a little time discussing John's use of the word world. You you mentioned that the original Greek word is cosmos.

00;10;35;13 - 00;10;58;16
Brenton
and in general it refers to all of creation. And then you went on to say that when the word world is used to refer to people in the New Testament, it connotes evil. and so just to clarify, when when John's writing this, he's referring to God's love being so great that despite his creation being so evil, he still loves us.

00;10;58;16 - 00;11;01;03
Brenton
Is that would that be a fair paraphrase of that?

00;11;01;03 - 00;11;32;05
Chris
Yeah. Would you say, I would use the term his creat creatures as human beings, people being so evil, like creation in general is not it's not evil. It's, you know, you know, the world, the word world, there's there's multiple different ways that it's used, you know, in the world, in the cosmos, including the Earth, you know, then there's the world, which is the world system, which is, you know, influenced by people.

00;11;32;05 - 00;11;54;04
Chris
You know, we we, we comprise the world system, influenced by Satan. And then there's the world people, which is what's in view in John. John 316. Okay. so yeah, that but but back to your point. Yeah. God's love for us. is, so great, despite that we are evil.

00;11;54;06 - 00;12;17;06
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, it's really referring to the the quality of his love more than anything, I think. And I, I found a Bebe Warfield quote today. It's kind of long, but I'll read it real fast. World is is not here a term of extension so much as a term of intensity? Its primary connotation is ethical, and the point of its employment is not.

00;12;17;06 - 00;12;36;04
Brenton
Suggest that the world is so big that it takes a great deal of love to embrace it all, but that the world is so bad that it takes a great kind of love to love it all. and much more to love it as God has loved it when he gave his son for it. So yeah, I think, I think that was a really good summation and it's.

00;12;36;08 - 00;12;39;21
Brenton
Yeah. Of, of what John's trying to get across there.

00;12;39;21 - 00;12;44;28
Chris
Yeah. I'll put you on the spot here. for our listeners is Bobby Warfield.

00;12;45;00 - 00;12;47;19
Brenton
He was, professor and theologian.

00;12;47;19 - 00;12;48;20
Chris
Yeah.

00;12;48;23 - 00;12;49;24
Brenton
I don't know a lot about him.

00;12;49;24 - 00;12;50;19
Chris
Yeah.

00;12;50;21 - 00;12;56;08
Brenton
But he was one of the, you know, early 18th century, 19th century.

00;12;56;10 - 00;12;58;29
Chris
Yeah. Late, late 19th and early 20th.

00;12;59;00 - 00;13;01;13
Brenton
Would have been one of the foremost reformed theologians.

00;13;01;13 - 00;13;09;28
Chris
He was. Yeah. Believe it or not, he was a Princeton. Really? he was actually the last head of the the Princeton Theological Seminary.

00;13;10;00 - 00;13;10;15
Brenton
Interesting.

00;13;10;20 - 00;13;22;28
Chris
And, yeah. So back when it was still, he's a conservative. So, yeah, he he would not be allowed he would not be allowed in the door today. that's.

00;13;22;29 - 00;13;46;23
Brenton
Fair. you know, I've always kind of found this, this topic interesting, because John seems to really use this word world in so many different ways. you know, for example, in the next verse, John 317, he's referring to the elect when he says, God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

00;13;46;23 - 00;14;10;23
Brenton
But then, you know, later in in John 17, he uses the same word world to refer to the not elect. He says, I'm praying for them. I'm not praying for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. And so I just think, I wanted to kind of point out here how important the context of how we read John and, you know, really paying attention to what's around it is going to be really important.

00;14;10;23 - 00;14;11;13
Chris
Yeah.

00;14;11;16 - 00;14;18;20
Brenton
Can you can you think of any other ways he uses it? I know there's a lot of different ones. Yeah.

00;14;18;22 - 00;14;37;21
Chris
probably the primary one is from first. John did not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him. So there. Well, he goes on in verse, 16 to say, for all that is in the world, desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life is not from the father, but is from the world.

00;14;37;23 - 00;15;06;01
Chris
and so that that's where he's talking more about the world kind of system, the way the world operates, the world's view, it's really values, and, and so, yeah, I, you bring up a really good point and, we're going to, we're going to find this, down the road when we, when we talk more about this word, believe and we start to see that, you know, when John says that they believed in him, that doesn't mean that necessarily they had saving faith.

00;15;06;03 - 00;15;24;07
Chris
Sometimes it does it, sometimes it does. It makes it a little bit challenging at times that you were going to come, come to a pastor says. And now, you know, many of his disciples stopped following him. And so they they believe, but, you know, are many of them even of the religious leaders, the Jews believed in him.

00;15;24;07 - 00;15;43;08
Chris
But part of the fear of, you know, basically being kicked out, they they didn't, you know, come forward with that. So did they really. But, you know, what exactly is, is in that so context is is really important, which I brought out with John 316 two is like, we, take John 316 and just yank it out of its context.

00;15;43;08 - 00;15;47;10
Chris
It, it, it begins to lose. or we can get sideways.

00;15;47;17 - 00;15;48;26
Brenton
We've never done that. Right.

00;15;48;28 - 00;16;23;15
Chris
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can just preach a message on John 316 as long as you, you know, that were perish the, a much of the rest of the, the the conversation with Nicodemus that Jesus is having, that's where that gets drawn into it. And what's interesting is, everybody, the focus of the passage, in my opinion, is, is honestly not in verse 16, like 14 and 15 are just as important in 17 maybe as even more important, which I think maybe we'll get to 17 here in a minute.

00;16;23;15 - 00;16;25;04
Chris
But yeah.

00;16;25;06 - 00;16;46;05
Brenton
Yeah. That's good. okay. So moving on. You said that, people can have a hard time accepting that God is just. And you talked about his just as a little bit. Why do you why do you think that is? And what what are the practical implications of of God's justice that makes us uncomfortable?

00;16;46;07 - 00;17;10;26
Chris
Well, I think that most people don't necessarily, on the surface, have an issue like God has just. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Obviously we want that kind of justice. We believe in justice. but then when we start really considering what that means, especially for us, it takes a different turn. And that's where people really, become difficult.

00;17;10;28 - 00;17;45;13
Chris
It becomes difficult because what it means is that he punishes, he punishes evil. And, again, on the surface, that's okay until we dig down and realize, oh, boy, you know, if I can say that we have a know kind of a crap moment because, like, I'm I'm evil, I'm a sinner. And, and that means that I deserve his, his his punishment and it's finally like when we think of, what people we consider evil or evil deeds.

00;17;45;13 - 00;18;15;22
Chris
Like, nobody has a problem with, you know, you can hear we go back to Hitler again, but, you know, like Hitler being punished, raged Stalin being punished. you know that. And and yeah, we like God the justice then. But then when we when we recognize that he's an infinitely holy God. And so even one sin is enough to deserve his, you know, infinite punishment, that's when it starts to be really, really difficult.

00;18;15;22 - 00;18;28;25
Chris
And then we also have the idea you kind of did this earlier, like this idea of like, why would God punish innocent people? That's another part of this problem is we think there's an idea, there's such a person is such a thing, is an innocent person.

00;18;28;28 - 00;18;53;25
Brenton
Yeah. Justice. It's it's a topic that's so ingrained into our culture now. And I think, you know, when we think about it, we we think about it in, in view of like a court situation and, I think there's so much like, demanding justice of, of evildoers that are in our culture. But it's it is hard to turn that around on, on us too.

00;18;53;28 - 00;19;11;00
Chris
So yeah. And, and it really does come back. I got a lot to this, this idea of we don't view ourselves in light of who we truly are and what we've truly done.

00;19;11;02 - 00;19;46;07
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. you also mentioned that, you know, a lot of people have heard or been told, or experienced condemnation through the Christian religion. you know, we've spent a decent amount of time on the show talking about legalism. And I don't know, if we need to dive all the way back into that necessarily, but I, I would like to get some of your thoughts on the topic of condemnation, knowing that if we're in Christ, condemnation is really antithetical to the message of the gospel.

00;19;46;07 - 00;19;52;21
Brenton
Why do you think that this is still so common in the church?

00;19;52;24 - 00;20;22;08
Chris
I think there's a couple of reasons for it. one is we have a real gospel problem in we, just don't truly understand and, and, and cling to hold to the gospel that, the gospel of God's grace to us in in Jesus Christ in Romans again. Eight one, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

00;20;22;08 - 00;20;38;27
Chris
And that just gets missed a lot of times. And, we just hear messages about, you know, that that we, you know, well, it's about this is what you got to do. This is what you got to do. And if you don't do this.

00;20;38;29 - 00;20;39;26
Brenton
You know.

00;20;39;28 - 00;21;10;05
Chris
Then you're under God's judgment. And, a failure to understand, like the gospel means that Jesus took the judgment in our place. And now, he takes our sin and we get his righteousness. I think that that's just a failure to teach that essential gospel message. And then the second part of it is that, it is, it's really easy to preach condemning messages.

00;21;10;05 - 00;21;31;21
Chris
I mean, it's it's like it, and when you say just a little insight as a preacher that that, you know, that's, that's an easy that's an easy go to, and it's an easy go to because it, it will resonate with people and it can resonate with your own heart because and here's what it really gets down to.

00;21;31;21 - 00;22;10;00
Chris
It makes you you feel better about yourself. And it can make people, that are listening to you feel better about themselves as long as, as you're not talking about their, their issue. Right. Or and I just think we like, we like rules and we like debate. It's justification. We like to justify ourselves. and so that makes the message of condemnation, and legalism, just just pretty appealing for on the, on the outside.

00;22;10;07 - 00;22;14;14
Chris
On the inside, it leaves people hollow and broken.

00;22;14;20 - 00;22;33;29
Brenton
So but I mean, from a, from a pastor's perspective, it wouldn't necessarily have to be malicious, right? I mean, I think there's still a good desire behind that to see behaviors change and see more holy people. But yeah, there's just a lack of on the other side of that. Yeah. I'm preaching grace.

00;22;33;29 - 00;23;17;26
Chris
Yeah. Well, it was affected chapter one. You know, he came full of grace and truth and and so I this is not original with me. I don't know where I heard this from, but, you know, being being people but pastors of tears and truth. So it's like, here's the truth. And like, yeah, God has a standard. God has, a very objective standard for what is right and wrong, and we fall short and yes, we, we need to call sin sin and yes, we need to understand that, even as as his children, he still will discipline us and he still can be displeased with our behavior.

00;23;17;29 - 00;23;42;23
Chris
And yet also to to try to do that in a way that is, is clear and, doesn't back down from that, but at the same time is, you know, gracious in the way that it is conveyed and where the gods, you know, we're always going to go back to the gospel. And in that there is there is grace.

00;23;42;25 - 00;24;08;02
Chris
You know, he give he gives more grace. and and so, and I think this is something that I've grown in significantly is especially, you know, I think for a lot of us when we were younger, it's, it's easy to be more fire and brimstone sometimes. And, life as a way, an age has a way of humbling you certainly has been the case.

00;24;08;04 - 00;24;36;27
Chris
case for me. But it's I mean, like coming from and being in and around legalistic backgrounds, it's just really easy. I think we it's just easy to preach. it's easy to get amens. and, but, but my, my experience is a lot of times that's coming from, it's a self just, it's a way to make me feel better about myself for people to feel better about, themselves.

00;24;36;27 - 00;25;03;19
Chris
And, and, when you can, when you can look down on somebody else, it, it pumps you up artificially. But that, that that's what, that's what happens in, in the heart when we're, when we're looking down and we're judge. You know, the people. That doesn't mean we don't call sin sin. But but you know, like, you know, the story of Jesus.

00;25;03;19 - 00;25;18;19
Chris
This is John chapter eight with a woman caught in adultery. And when we get there, we'll have a discussion about is that's supposed to actually be in John eight and all of that kind of stuff. That'll be an interesting moment when we get to that. I think this story is, truly happened, whether it's supposed to be there.

00;25;18;19 - 00;25;43;15
Chris
And, and that part of the the Bible or not. So another question, but Jesus says, you know, they bring this lady's caught in adultery, which is interesting. They don't bring the man she was caught with. So it's a it's an interesting part of the story. Sad part of the story, too. But she's, you know, they're trying to catch him and he just says, you know, those of you in the first, you know, who without no sin, you can be the first to cast a stone.

00;25;43;18 - 00;25;56;27
Chris
And he actually says the, he looks up and they start to leave the older ones first. but then Jesus doesn't just say, okay to the lady, you're free to go.

00;25;56;28 - 00;25;58;02
Brenton
Yeah, sure.

00;25;58;04 - 00;26;23;06
Chris
Like it was. It's okay. What you did is okay. I said go and sin no more. So there is the, How do I, as a pastor, how do we as believers say, there's grace for you? I'm not going to condemn. He did. Jesus didn't condemn her. But he didn't also excuse her. and so how do I not condemn others and not excuse others?

00;26;23;06 - 00;26;46;28
Chris
And that's where the gospel comes in, is like, I'm not going to condemn you because if you're a believer, Christ doesn't condemn you. But I'm also not going to, you know, excuse your your behavior and churches today. I think more and more fall on either fall off either side of the beam, so to speak. On that, it's either, it's all condemnation.

00;26;46;28 - 00;27;07;28
Chris
Like, if you've done this, you, you know, you're you're outcast. You're you're no, you're not, you can't be accepted or you're a second class citizen. Then on the other side is is it anything goes, you know, all guys love. It's all God's grace. And so doesn't matter how you how you live. and what we can say.

00;27;07;28 - 00;27;26;23
Chris
So I said to believers and unbelievers, what we can say is, you are you are under condemnation. Like I was under condemnation for my sin. But I found freedom from my guilt in Jesus. And you can find that freedom, too. So I'm not going to condemn you. And what Jesus says is like, Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but the world may be saved through him.

00;27;26;23 - 00;27;43;26
Chris
But then he goes on and says, for if you don't believe in me, you're already condemned. It's already that that the fact. So I can say to somebody, you're, you're you're already under condemnation, like we all were under condemnation. But Jesus didn't come to condemn you. He doesn't want it to be. It doesn't have to be that way.

00;27;44;03 - 00;27;57;09
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. It's good. I guess quickly we can end on this, but do you have any advice or thoughts on how to help people kind of work through this? If, if they've experienced or know people that have?

00;27;57;11 - 00;28;30;01
Chris
Yeah. and this is, this is can be really tough to find. But I think more and more I am I'm learning that that it has to be experienced, in relationship with, with people who can help us to, to experience grace in the midst of our failings, and our weaknesses and our struggles. And so, like, rupture occurs in relationship.

00;28;30;01 - 00;28;55;11
Chris
And so healing must come in relationships. I mean, just explain that. What I mean by that a little bit more is, like I say about rupture or like this condemnation that we feel, because of, of a legalism happens in, in, in a relationship with, with people and in a church. and that would be corporately but also in, in smaller groups.

00;28;55;11 - 00;29;30;01
Chris
And so I think healing has to come corporately in a, in a church. And then in a, in a smaller group of people. So if you if someone comes out of a legalistic background, they need to come into a church where they're going to hear grace week after week after week after week for probably years, but then they also need smaller group relationships where they can actually be open with people about what's going on in their life and what they're struggling with, and where people don't move away from them, but people move toward them.

00;29;30;03 - 00;30;01;01
Chris
and, and that's really, really difficult because people who have come from legalistic backgrounds, generally speaking, are going to be very afraid to share what's actually going on in their heart and what they're struggling with, because it's a little bit and legalistic. Church is like kind of Whac-A-Mole you remember that game? Like you stick your head up and you, you show any sign of weakness or struggle or you have any type of, you know, sinning in your present or your past and you're just going to be beat.

00;30;01;04 - 00;30;27;24
Chris
Maybe not physically, hopefully not physically, but, but certainly emotionally and relationally and spiritually. And so the healing for that, needs to come in, in, in, in relationships where, where you actually are able to share like, I'm, I'm struggling with this issue or this has happened to me or I've done this and people show you grace and they accept you.

00;30;27;27 - 00;30;45;00
Chris
I'm not saying they accept the behavior that they they accept you and love you in that. And that can take a lot of time. And it can be a lot of ups and downs because, you know, we're we're we're frail and we we can struggle with that. And we we've all got our own guilt we're dealing with.

00;30;45;03 - 00;31;14;02
Chris
But that, that's, that's the only that's the only place that it's going to. It's going to happen. I'm so thankful that we have a church here that that I see it happening more and more and more. And I actually literally get examples of this, on a weekly basis of people who, you know, they, they, they come from very broken and difficult pasts.

00;31;14;04 - 00;31;29;02
Chris
sometimes it's by their choice, sometimes it's by others. sometimes it's by a combination of the two. And yet, they're being accepted and being loved, and not judged. And that's actually healing because using that to heal.

00;31;29;05 - 00;31;51;28
Brenton
yeah. it's good. Okay. well, we'll wrap up on that. I, I guess I do kind of have one more question as well as we, look forward to the next episode, with, about politics. First of all, I want to, I think, dare I say, encourage people to, send questions in if they have any.

00;31;52;01 - 00;31;53;03
Brenton


00;31;53;06 - 00;31;53;27
Chris
You dared it.

00;31;53;27 - 00;32;04;14
Brenton
But also, what can I just have you quickly give me, like, your heart behind what what conversation you'd like to have about this?

00;32;04;17 - 00;32;09;05
Chris
Well, you said you have one more question. I always have one more thing to say. works.

00;32;09;05 - 00;32;11;09
Brenton
Out.

00;32;11;11 - 00;32;53;16
Chris
Yeah, I guess my my heart behind this is that we would actually, you know, wrestle with, with this issue and that we wouldn't just assume like, oh, this is, this is this is easy. Like, this is an easy decision. or we go the way that we always go, but that we really lay this before the Lord. And we think biblically about this, that we come to this issue, and we, we, we come to it as Christians first and foremost and say in this Christians, what does the Bible have to say?

00;32;53;16 - 00;33;22;27
Chris
What is God's Word have to say about this issue? And then prayerfully consider the options in front of us. and I my just my concern is, is I, I don't I'm, I'm concerned worried that we, we don't do that and we, we only think in terms of, I'll just be blunt about it. We only think in terms of policies and we don't think in terms of character as well.

00;33;23;00 - 00;33;53;01
Chris
and, and I'm not saying that that, that, that may mean we end up voting the same way that we voted, we were going to vote before the message or my comments. That's not actually, my, my issue is in to change the way that anybody votes, because that's not that's not my responsibility. But, I but I want people to think biblically about every issue and I and, and I'm concerned that we are we are more influence.

00;33;53;01 - 00;34;26;03
Chris
It's by our, you know, the people that we listen to, that are, either unbelievers or maybe that they're just another, you know, Christian media figure and maybe that their, their own, another pastor. And so I'm going to be really bold here. I, I think that the members, especially in attenders of Harmony Bible Church, should listen more to their own pastors than to to some other pastor.

00;34;26;05 - 00;34;51;00
Chris
Yeah. Yeah. and I think there's warrant for that, a warrant for that from Hebrews 13. And so that's, that's my heart. And that's as long as we are being faithful to God's Word so that it's not just unlimited. And whatever we say, you know, like the Bereans with Paul, you like, they even went and took what Paul said and and like they're checking the scriptures to see what he's saying is, is is accurate.

00;34;51;01 - 00;35;08;01
Chris
So, so but that I just want again my, my heart in it is is not to change anybody's but his vote. It's to hopefully help us to be grounded in in what the how the Bible tells us to purchase you.

00;35;08;03 - 00;35;22;06
Brenton
Good. Okay. Well, there's your primer for next week. feel free to send some questions in whethe