00;00;13;09 - 00;00;40;05
Chris
That's why we've got to know God's Word and why theology really, truly does matter. Why I love to to preach God's Word and why I try to do it so passionately. Because it's not just facts or things that that don't really matter to the day to day problem of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

00;00;40;07 - 00;00;44;21
Brenton
Welcome back to further. I'm Brenton Grim. Chris Carr, how are you doing?

00;00;44;24 - 00;00;46;09
Chris
I'm a little sore.

00;00;46;11 - 00;00;47;02
Brenton
you. Me both.

00;00;47;02 - 00;00;49;04
Chris
Yeah. You know, big.

00;00;49;09 - 00;00;50;17
Brenton
What are you doing today?

00;00;50;19 - 00;00;58;11
Chris
yeah. Playing some pickleball. Really? The first time ever. So. And, I'm a little too old. I think, for this.

00;00;58;11 - 00;00;59;03
Brenton
That's how I feel.

00;00;59;03 - 00;01;02;03
Chris
I I'm too old now. Come on. Yeah.

00;01;02;03 - 00;01;07;01
Brenton
You're more active than me, so you have no excuse. You're running marathons over there? Well.

00;01;07;04 - 00;01;16;14
Chris
Yeah. but just remember, I did run one a few weeks ago for recovery. it's a little rough, but anyway, we'll be alright.

00;01;16;15 - 00;01;18;24
Brenton
I've been trying to motivate myself to get back into the gym.

00;01;18;24 - 00;01;21;10
Chris
Physical exercises of some value.

00;01;21;13 - 00;01;39;20
Brenton
Right, right. It's good. so real quick. we're going to do this episode on John from this week. But, a little later this week, we're going to release an episode on politics. And so, I encourage you guys to look for that. It'll be coming out and we'll see how it goes.

00;01;39;22 - 00;01;43;02
Chris
Yeah, we will.

00;01;43;04 - 00;01;58;02
Brenton
okay. Let's jump straight into John here. So you quoted Dr. Carson, saying that arrogance is the worst form of the person of the perennial human sin. What does he mean by that?

00;01;58;05 - 00;02;45;20
Chris
Yeah, I think that, when he talks about the perennial human tendency, he's talking about pride. and, you know, obviously perennial means it's just continue. that it comes, back again and again. and, arrogance is the, the worst form, of that. And, so you have, maybe your garden variety, pride. and then arrogance is just an even notch, above that and, and just, I've got this and, this is, or as I used to, in the sermon on Sunday, these things that I have, or they're mine, it's it's it is it is mine.

00;02;45;20 - 00;03;08;27
Chris
I work for them. I've made the right decisions. I've been industrious. and so they're mine. And nobody, even God can tell me what to do with it. And and, and then, you know, a lot of times, I think it, it comes out as people, in terms of when they don't get what they want.

00;03;09;00 - 00;03;29;11
Chris
God shows to me that how dare he not give it to me? Or when God takes something away. And you know, how dare he he do that like he he doesn't have a right to do that. And and I don't know that necessarily. We always say those things directly. but that's often the at the attitude of arrogance.

00;03;29;13 - 00;03;42;20
Brenton
That was something else I was going to ask how how can this present itself? Because, I mean, arrogance can present itself in different ways. Right? how do we typically see it. Because I think, I think there's some sneaky ways that comes across.

00;03;42;20 - 00;04;06;11
Chris
Do you know what I'd say the sneaky ways are we're and I think this is one of the primary ways. And I see this all the time and I'm not immune to it myself. But people will get bitter, they get bitter, they get hardened. And, because things in life didn't or haven't gone the way that they would want them to.

00;04;06;11 - 00;04;37;23
Chris
And, this is often associated with some type of pain that, that, that people, that people have and and either again, they, they lose something or they, they don't get something that they want and, and, and sometimes, by the way, those things can be good, good things, that we either again want don't get or we have and we and we lose.

00;04;37;25 - 00;04;59;15
Chris
and so, it can, it can maybe even seem insensitive for me to say that that's, that's arrogance, but really that at the end of the day, it is pride. Maybe it's not arrogance because it doesn't express itself in an actual stated form. And where we you're actually thinking, you know, through that.

00;04;59;15 - 00;05;09;22
Brenton
But I guess before we go any further, can you kind of give us a definition of like what you would call pride and what you'd call arrogance?

00;05;09;25 - 00;05;42;03
Chris
yeah. I mean, I think the Bible would, define let's maybe define pride in the, in the, by defining humility. Okay. so pride is kind of the in some ways, the absence of humility and humility is, as Paul says. And in Romans 12, I think, there's a couple passages, Romans 12, Philippians two. But, Romans 12 is not thinking more highly than we ought to think of ourselves, but not to think more lowly.

00;05;42;03 - 00;06;08;13
Chris
We are to think with sober judgment. So it's not, pride. Pride can be expressed in two ways. It can be expressed in thinking of ourselves more better than we are or making ourselves more at the center than we should. But then there's there's another form of pride where we we we don't actually recognize how God has, made us, created us the gifts and abilities that he's given us.

00;06;08;13 - 00;06;40;17
Chris
And so we're, we're we think, too lowly of ourselves and, you know, kind of the a little bit like the woe is me sometimes maybe attitude or I'm just not worth anything or that kind of thing. And both Paul's but Paul, the Bible says both of those things are, our pride. So you go to the, of the most famous passage in the Bible on humility is Philippians two, where Paul says, you know that we're to think of others better than ourselves.

00;06;40;19 - 00;07;00;26
Chris
and then he uses Jesus as the example, in who who took on the form of a servant became obedient to death, either death on the cross. What what I would suggest there is that Jesus. Did you know he he he didn't promote himself, but he also understood who he was and the mission that God had given him.

00;07;00;26 - 00;07;26;19
Chris
And he stepped into it. So a lot of times when people, are exhibiting the pride where they, are thinking too lowly of themselves, the result is they won't actually step into, you know, what what the Lord has has called them them to. They're not recognizing things like they're made in God's image, and that God has, if we go back, I'm kind of going all over the place.

00;07;26;19 - 00;07;45;16
Chris
But you go to Genesis one and where God, you know, says, God made man this image and and then he gives what's known as the creation mandate, which to go out and to fill the earth and subdue it like you're made in my image. And so I've created you with gifts and talents and abilities, and I've given you a responsibility.

00;07;45;23 - 00;08;06;20
Chris
Now, sin has obviously impacted both the image of God in us and, our ability to be able to fulfill the creation mandate. But it hasn't erased it hasn't eliminated it. We're still we're still image bearers, and we still have been given a mission by God. And that's one of the key points I wanted everybody to get is like, you still, you have value.

00;08;06;21 - 00;08;42;09
Chris
You have worth, and you have gifts. A billion of these talents, resources. And God has given that because he has a mission for for you to play a part in. And I think so, I if I could just summarize it all, I would, I would say that humility is, is is embracing that and stepping into it. And pride really is, is is a myriad of ways in which we refuse to embrace who we are, that God has created us and saved us for and to step into to, to his mission.

00;08;42;09 - 00;08;48;16
Chris
And I am I just flow out of yeah, in a lot of different ways and for a lot of different people.

00;08;48;19 - 00;09;15;22
Brenton
Yeah. So I want to stick on kind of the false humility, side of things. I know this is something that I've really struggled with for a long time, and typically in my case, at least, it shows itself as separate self-doubt. Vacation. or how can we recognize that in ourselves more quickly? Because I think, you know, it's easy for for you to almost accept that.

00;09;15;22 - 00;09;25;29
Brenton
Yeah, I am being humble when, when I'm talking badly about myself or, you know, the how can we actually look out for that? And, and see that in ourselves?

00;09;26;02 - 00;09;53;23
Chris
Yeah. I think what being humble is, is, is it's not drawing attention to ourselves. It's not making things be about us. It's not trying to be the center of attention. It's always trying to turn things back to the Lord and give him praise and glory and thanks and encouraging other people, giving other people credit. I don't think, humility is is, you know, talking badly of yourself.

00;09;53;23 - 00;09;59;28
Chris
Yeah, yeah. I just think we can it can masquerade like that.

00;10;00;00 - 00;10;01;19
Brenton
that's another form of pride and.

00;10;01;19 - 00;10;30;26
Chris
Yeah, I mean, and it's, I'm, I'm talking about sometimes it could be, you know, being humorous, you know, and making fun of yourself. I think it's it's it's I think it is actually a form of of humility when we don't take ourselves too seriously. I think pride, you know, is when people take themselves too seriously, that that is pride, because then we're worrying too much about what people are thinking about us or or even how we are coming across are the mistakes that we've made and how we are doing and all that.

00;10;30;28 - 00;10;58;11
Chris
But I just think it's like we're tearing ourselves down. that that's not that's not humility. That's not that, that's not it's not actually living in the truth. And I think, you know. Humility is living in in the truth, in, in the reality of what God God says is true is that I'm I'm a fallen human being. I'm also just a human being.

00;10;58;11 - 00;11;09;05
Chris
So I'm not God. But I am a human being made in God's image with gifts and talents and abilities. And so that that humility is, is, is both of those.

00;11;09;06 - 00;11;33;19
Brenton
Yeah. One thing you brought out in this week's message was just the way John the Baptist responds to his people. and how, you know, he is he does have humility, but he has joy while being humble. Right. So you you really emphasized his joy. And there is it. I'm wondering, is it possible to be, like, begrudgingly humble?

00;11;33;19 - 00;11;40;00
Brenton
Is that is that even an option, or is joy an essential part of humility? Well.

00;11;40;03 - 00;12;12;06
Chris
I, I think that there is room here for wrestling with humility and, and it where we are actually having to make efforts to, to to be humble like we don't want to be and like okay, so it may not be always joyful is like a, it's going to cause me some, some pain in this moment. It's not very, you know, fun, so to speak.

00;12;12;09 - 00;12;51;21
Chris
but I think that in it's certainly in its purest form. And that's where if we, we rightfully understand things. Yes. I think it is, an essential, an essential part of humility. And I actually think that that's and I don't know if I brought this out very well or if at all, but I think that that's actually, how one of the ways we can grow to be humble is to say, like, this is the path, this is a path of joy when I don't when I don't make things about me, I am going to be more joyful because when I, when I do things, make things about me, I'm.

00;12;51;24 - 00;13;14;20
Chris
It's just like I'm always going to be worried about am I getting my due? And I'm always going to have to, to, to promote myself and Deplatform myself. And that's just exhausting. and when I could just relax and say, no, it's not, it's not about me. But I would also say there's not going to be a lot of joy when we are always, you know, we're we are self-deprecating to a fault.

00;13;14;20 - 00;13;22;25
Chris
And we're we are like always down on ourself. That's not joy either. I mean, that's just like who? It's a little bit of the Eeyore syndrome, right?

00;13;22;27 - 00;13;24;29
Brenton
You know. Yeah.

00;13;25;01 - 00;13;39;12
Chris
and and Pooh bears always try and and Tigger always trying to cheer up. You're right. and everybody might think that you are as humble, but is he really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00;13;39;14 - 00;14;07;26
Brenton
So it's a good point. Yeah. I'm sure everybody understands you're Winnie the Pooh reference here. Yeah. okay. So you, you talked about how John the Baptist really embraced his role rather than aspiring to be someone else, someone that he wasn't made to be. why are we often discontent with who God made us to be?

00;14;07;29 - 00;14;50;25
Chris
Yeah. That's a that's a great question. I just take a stab at it. I think a lot of times it's a comparison. You know, we we're discontent because we always want to be this person or that person or have this, or to have that. and, and I think the, the, the devil just sows those seeds of, of discontent is, is like, if you don't if you're not like this or you don't have this attention or this following or whatever, then you're, you know, you're not enough or you are, you're falling short.

00;14;50;27 - 00;15;20;11
Chris
You're nobody. and I think that that's probably the most essential part of it, and I, I think it also goes back to because of sin. Now we, we know that something something's wrong with us, and we're always looking for something to make us feel, to make us right. The feel that we're right. And that's why, again, justification is so important.

00;15;20;14 - 00;15;29;07
Chris
We've talked about this multiple times over recent months, is we're always going to look to justify ourselves, unless we just rest in the justification that God gives us in Jesus. Yeah.

00;15;29;10 - 00;15;39;25
Brenton
Okay. So I ask the same question I asked earlier. How can we recognize that in ourselves? How can we be more vigilant about seeing it?

00;15;39;27 - 00;15;42;02
Chris


00;15;42;05 - 00;15;44;22
Brenton
Yeah.

00;15;44;24 - 00;16;22;08
Chris
I, I think the this is why we have to do some of the hard work of, of really recognizing our, you ask the question how do we recognize this. So, let me come back to this another way. I think we have, to really give ourselves to to more fully, more deeply understanding the gospel, immersing ourselves in it and, understanding what it what it what it really, truly says.

00;16;22;08 - 00;17;02;04
Chris
So, you know, I know understood in the one way the gospel is very simple and, and and basic. and we saw it John 316. there it is. But in another way, it's much, much deeper than that. And so we need not to, be satisfied with knowing the, the basics of the gospel, but we need to dive into its depths and then work really hard at learning how to apply that to the way that we view God, the way that we view, ourselves and how he views us.

00;17;02;07 - 00;17;24;28
Chris
and, and so, the more I think that we understand how God views us, the more easy will be able to see how we fall short. I would say this I was going to jump into this earlier, and this is a deep topic here. I really think we've got to wrestle with the this topic of shame.

00;17;25;01 - 00;17;50;07
Chris
And, I think everybody, to one degree or another wrestles with shame. And I think shame fuels our pride and it fuels on both sides. But it particularly, fuels this, this idea that I'm, I'm not I'm not enough. And and by the way, we're we're not enough in and of ourselves. So I just want to be really clear about that.

00;17;50;10 - 00;18;18;14
Chris
But we are enough in in Christ. And he has taken our shame. But so many of us, we and shame is really difficult thing to put a finger on in your life and to actually be able to to see how it manifests itself all the time. But for example, you know, I've talked about this before, if and because both of us wrestle with this as if we are unable to take compliments from people.

00;18;18;17 - 00;18;49;17
Chris
this may be eye opening to some people hearing this that that is that that shame speaking there I, I can't like and legitimate so so not people just saying it to say it but they're legitimately saying I see this in you. I'm thankful for this in you. you did really, really well here. And it's just a legitimate they are not trying to get anything from us, and we can't take that, or we brush it off.

00;18;49;19 - 00;19;18;05
Chris
That is shame. Speaking is like I'm uncomfortable with that. Why am I uncomfortable with that? Because I don't I don't feel worthy of it. and now you might think, well, we're not worthy. You know what? What what humility does is humility receives it and then then then turns glory back to God. Doesn't. So so in other words, it takes that in and doesn't get proud.

00;19;18;05 - 00;19;36;13
Chris
Like, oh, it's me. Look at me. I'm great, I'm wonderful. I really thinks I'm great. But no, it's like, oh yeah, well, praise be to God that he used me in that way. And he's given me that opportunity. And he used that, you know, that message or that video, like for you, that video like, yeah, that's he did that.

00;19;36;16 - 00;20;10;25
Chris
and but so many of us, struggle with shame, because of things that have happened to us, our family, of, or our family of origin, relationship with parents. sometimes it could be relationship with other people, and we just, we we really, really, wrestle with that. And so, and so for some people, by the way, I'll say one more thing here and then I'll, I'll turn it back to you.

00;20;10;28 - 00;20;31;25
Chris
For some people, it is in the, I'm not good enough. And then other people express it and they, they exert themselves and they like, I am like the people you see that are the most kind of brash and out there. And I'm greatest and seem to be the most confident. And I've got it all together and look at me, they actually are dealing with shame too.

00;20;32;00 - 00;20;39;23
Chris
They're just trying to cover it. in, in in that self exaltation.

00;20;39;25 - 00;20;59;26
Brenton
yeah. Yeah, yeah. When you talk about, you know, the, the humility, what that does is points it back to God. I think that that's another way of, you know, in church culture to kind of brush off compliments to just, you know, kind of the I just scored a touchdown point to the sky kind of thing. Right, right.

00;20;59;29 - 00;21;08;07
Brenton
I think that that just seems like the, the humble thing to do. But but if that is actually, honestly what's happening in your heart, then yeah. Yeah.

00;21;08;10 - 00;21;35;08
Chris
Yeah. I mean it doesn't necessarily have to be like you literally say, you know, praise Jesus. but like what's going on in your heart? And I just give one, you know, first Corinthians 15, the first ten verses Paul lays out the gospel, the nuts and bolts of the gospel and, and at the end, he's talking about the resurrection and how everybody, Jesus appeared to all of these people.

00;21;35;08 - 00;22;01;21
Chris
And he says, last of all, as one untimely born, he appeared to me, and I don't even deserve to be apostle because I persecuted the church of Christ. But by grace, God's grace, I am what I am. Yeah. And, and his grace to me was not without effect. And so he's on the one hand, like I, I, you know, I don't deserve this, but on the other hand, God's grace is not without effect.

00;22;01;21 - 00;22;26;26
Chris
And so I am, somebody that he's given this mission to. So it's I love that passage because Paul is, like, overwhelmed, like, I shouldn't have this opportunity, but God has given me this opportunity. And so it's it's both the the right perspective. on on both sides of the equation is, is. Yes. I'm fallen. I'm sinful, I have weaknesses.

00;22;26;29 - 00;22;45;02
Chris
at the same time, God's called me into this. And so I'm going to embrace and I'm going to step into that. So he's not like, I screwed up too much, you know, I'm I'm no good. it's over and done. That's the where I'm talking about the how do we the the gospel is absolutely essential, to all of this.

00;22;45;03 - 00;23;19;28
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. okay, maybe I'll just close on this. I know you've you've talked outside of the show, but a lot about, kind of becoming who we were meant to be. Right? And, you, you call it the true self. And I'm wondering, you know, what what kind of advice would you give to, people who are struggling to see themselves as God actually made them?

00;23;20;01 - 00;23;37;19
Brenton
how can we stop coping with those things and covering up those things and actually just accept that that God made us who we are for his glory and that, you know, we need to step into that and be comfortable with with how God made us.

00;23;37;21 - 00;24;05;05
Chris
Yeah. I think a key key passage here is, Ephesians four. Paul's talking about putting on and putting off, and he says in Ephesians 423 is put off and put on this whole section. But he says, be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self created after the likeness of God and true righteousness and holiness.

00;24;05;08 - 00;24;35;01
Chris
So that's that. That's what that's what we're after. It's to put off the old man, put on the new man in in Christ. I think that what I'm learning this key to this is, is, is understanding what more about the old man. I think it it's really hard for us at times to put on this, this new man until we understand what what the old man is like, what the old man struggles with.

00;24;35;03 - 00;24;55;18
Chris
And so we just want to we just go. If you go to this, this section of Ephesians four or Colossians three is a similar passage. It's there's all this put off and put on language of like falsehood and put on the truth angry, being angry and sinning and, and you know, but be angry and don't sin all, all of this kind of stuff.

00;24;55;20 - 00;25;22;21
Chris
but I think sometimes we so often just think of it in terms of, I need to stop doing this, and I need to start doing this. And there there's a need for us to understand why. Why do I struggle with this, you know, where does that where does that come? Where does that come from? so one of the, issues for me would have been like cynicism.

00;25;22;24 - 00;25;41;26
Chris
and, my wife helped me, to recognize, how cynical I was, but it but it wasn't in, in until I actually began to understand why I was cynical. Yeah.

00;25;41;28 - 00;26;10;15
Chris
That I actually, found freedom from it because it wasn't enough simply to say, stop being cynical and start being more hopeful. That's that's part of it. There is that. But I had to to, to to do a lot and still having to do like, okay, why am I the case and, and for me and I think this is true for a lot of people, it's actually going back and understanding our story.

00;26;10;17 - 00;26;34;05
Chris
It's understanding, because we all have a story, of our life and, the things that have happened, to us, the things that have been done by us, the things that have been done around us. And what I mean by that is what what, people have done to us, what circumstances have happened in our life, and then the choices that we have made, all of those things have formed a story.

00;26;34;05 - 00;27;02;27
Chris
And oftentimes that story is actually not. There are parts of that story that are not actually that true, because we just started telling ourselves this because of things that have happened to us. and, and so for me and I won't go into all the details here, just it's very, very personal. But, one of the reasons I became cynical is because I just just, like, there's no hope that this is going to this is going to change.

00;27;02;29 - 00;27;24;23
Chris
and I've been I've been wanting this, this thing and looking and longing for this, from somebody in my life, and I it no matter what I did it, I never I never got it. So I just, you know, essentially lost hope. And then I became cynical. And so my what I'm trying to get to here, I hope this is not too confusing.

00;27;24;23 - 00;27;48;04
Chris
Everybody. I've gone back and I'm as I've been able to understand that and be able to process that and to be able to find healing for that and to be able to to see that in the light of the gospel and in the light of God's love for me, that is actually open, open my heart to, to to be less cynical and more and to be to be more hopeful.

00;27;48;10 - 00;27;48;29
Brenton


00;27;49;02 - 00;28;25;25
Chris
And so I say all of that to say, I the answer your question is a long, long, long. But but I think the answer to your question in, in, in big part is, is really understanding, why do I, why do I think this way about myself and what where does that come from? And just even understanding that will open up, a lot of, a lot of, I think healing and and true humility.

00;28;25;27 - 00;28;26;20
Chris
in us.

00;28;26;22 - 00;28;31;02
Brenton
Yeah. Okay, good. Well, I'm, we.

00;28;31;02 - 00;28;33;27
Chris
Didn't plan on going there today, but. No, you know, who knows where.

00;28;34;00 - 00;28;53;09
Brenton
And I'm confident that there's probably some questions that are going to come out of that because Chris covered a lot there. So if you do have any, please let us know. Ask it for the podcast.com. we will wrap this up here. Thanks, Chris. and be looking for, this bonus episode on politics should be coming out Thursday.

00;28;53;12 - 00;28;55;12
Brenton
So talk to you next week. That's great. Okay.