00;00;13;08 - 00;00;40;04
Chris
That's why we got to know God's word and why theology really, truly does matter. Why I love to to preach God's Word and why I try to do it so passionately. Because it's not just facts or things that that don't really matter to the day to day program of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

00;00;40;06 - 00;00;48;16
Brenton
Welcome back to further. for our very special election week. Almost election week. Bonus episode.

00;00;48;19 - 00;00;51;01
Chris
We're we're less than a week away, so.

00;00;51;01 - 00;01;14;13
Brenton
Yeah, we are. It's getting close. thanks for joining me, Chris. Thanks for agreeing to do this. I think it's going to be good. I don't know, this topic, you know, always fires people up, and I'm no different. So, anyway, how are you doing today?

00;01;14;16 - 00;01;19;16
Chris
I'm doing good. I'm looking forward to this conversation. And I think it's an important one. Yeah.

00;01;19;19 - 00;01;26;13
Brenton
So what? I guess, what made you want to have this conversation in the first place?

00;01;26;15 - 00;01;58;06
Chris
Well, I think, there's a lot more to talk about. And I took the time to in my sermon. I know it's on the minds of many of us. And, I feel responsibility to try to shepherd, the people of our church in in how we should think about all of this. That's that's my responsibility. And and you and I even talked about this, yesterday.

00;01;58;06 - 00;02;27;29
Chris
Is this, like. And I want everybody to understand this, especially with some of the questions that, that, that people may have in particular, as it pertains to like why I wouldn't necessarily endorse a candidate or a party is like my, my, my job, my primary job. In some ways, my my whole job is to shepherd the people of Harmony Bible Church and that that means using the word of the Word of God.

00;02;27;29 - 00;02;55;29
Chris
And how how does the Word of God speak into these issues? And and the Bible does nowhere says anything about the Republican or the Democratic Party or about any of the candidates in this election. And so and I take it very, very serious, my responsibility is is like I always try to, regardless of what the topic is, is like, I'm, I'm going to just try to speak to the best that I can prayerfully like to.

00;02;55;29 - 00;03;13;11
Chris
This is what the Word of God says. And try to be really careful to, about not really say much, outside of of that, at least in ways that we're constrained people's consciences. Does that make sense? yeah.

00;03;13;14 - 00;03;32;17
Brenton
Yeah, I, I think as we were talking yesterday, you know, I, I, I think I, I, I'm glad that your heart is where it's at because I think that you're looking at it from a shepherding point of view and not like, I think there are a lot of churches that look at this, like, pragmatically and, and just want to get a lot of votes toward a certain candidate.

00;03;32;17 - 00;04;00;07
Brenton
And that's just not where you're at. I think that you're, you're much rather have just apply biblical wisdom to how we think about this. And so I appreciate that. yeah, it makes sense. so when you decided to, to address this, what what would you say the, the problem was that you saw and, and that you wanted to specifically address.

00;04;00;09 - 00;04;39;16
Chris
Well, I, and there were, there were numerous ones, but the biggest one is I, I just wasn't seeing people look at this, current election that that we have come in, and considering, or giving enough weight to all of the things that the Bible would, would tell Christians to give weight to when it comes to this matter.

00;04;39;18 - 00;05;07;16
Chris
and, and so that would be the biggest one. another one, along with that, it's really affiliated with that is, is the, the gospel issue that is, in my opinion, wrapped up in this. And, and not everybody would agree with a number of the things that I said. and not everybody would, would agree, particularly with this gospel issue thing.

00;05;07;16 - 00;05;37;21
Chris
But, but, but for me, that that is a primary concern as well, is that we do not compromise, the gospel. So again, let's consider everything that the Bible has to say, not just, you know, 1 or 2 things. And then the gospel, issue and, you know, I could add another one is just trying to, I a key passage here, I think, is Colossians four six, where Paul says, let your speech always be gracious.

00;05;37;21 - 00;05;59;09
Chris
Season with salt so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. And there's just not a whole lot of that, in the world, like in our country right now. And I think that Christian, I see Christians just going right along with that. And and again, always be gracious. Yeah. Season is also you may know how to answer each person.

00;05;59;09 - 00;06;21;23
Chris
And and so there's not like there's not any out here like oh in these circumstances when these people support this or when these people do to do this, that we we can we can forego being being gracious and and speaking salt. We're called to be, you know, Paul, things playing off of Jesus here and in the sermon on the Mount.

00;06;21;26 - 00;06;49;26
Chris
We are the salt of the earth. That's a preservative. So our our speech and our actions should help to preserve, serve, our culture not lead to its further deterioration. And when we, go into to this and we're there's no difference between us in the world and how we are speaking and reacting to this. we're compromising.

00;06;50;00 - 00;07;19;26
Chris
We're compromising the gospel. There, there too. and so, yeah, I just, I, I don't, I think, you know, people maybe were not maybe because I heard this like, well, you know, I, I confused them about, like, who they should vote for. What were they telling about who they should vote for? My, my purpose in this was, was not in any way to tell people who they should, they should vote for.

00;07;19;26 - 00;07;37;18
Chris
And if anybody got that, from my comments, they misunderstood me. I want to bring before people the the word of God and then let that guide us as we as we vote.

00;07;37;20 - 00;08;00;14
Brenton
Yeah. Well, just to clarify a little bit of what you were saying earlier with the, you know, have our, our, our speech season was so, I don't think that you're saying that we should be kind of milquetoast about this issue, right. Like we we still have almost I would say the, the duty to have a strong opinion in these issues.

00;08;00;18 - 00;08;01;19
Brenton
Right. And so.

00;08;01;20 - 00;08;03;03
Chris


00;08;03;06 - 00;08;17;07
Brenton
That's sometimes going to come with strong words. That's going to, that's, that's going to require us to step up and be and be firm about things. But still understanding that, you know, we want to draw people in and not not push them away.

00;08;17;09 - 00;08;42;20
Chris
Yeah. The only the only caveat that I, we get there is, I think this goes back to our prior conversation about humility is like, we can have strong opinions, but, I, I, I, I, I think one of the problems, another problem is, is that, we look at all of this as black and, like so many of us look at it as it is just black and white.

00;08;42;22 - 00;08;53;15
Chris
And it's, it's it's it's a lot of times it's not black. And it's black and white as we think that it is. and, and I'm not

00;08;53;18 - 00;08;54;29
Brenton
Some of the issues are black.

00;08;55;01 - 00;08;56;28
Chris
Right? What? Oh, okay.

00;08;57;03 - 00;08;59;13
Brenton
So the solution to it right now. Yeah.

00;08;59;13 - 00;09;27;17
Chris
The solution. So let's I'm just going to let it be be be really blunt here. the issue of, of life is, is a black and white like abortion. a a we should protect life, from the womb to the tomb. So it's not. It's just a abortion. It's just life at any, from conception until the Lord takes someone, at the end.

00;09;27;19 - 00;09;58;22
Chris
At the end of their life. The reality is, is that. And this might be news to people. Both parties have pro choice positions now. Yeah. and I say, and every candidate does. This is why it's important like to, to look at candidates and not the party as much. But the, the President Trump has, basically adopted a pro-choice position.

00;09;58;24 - 00;10;33;11
Chris
and and so that doesn't mean that the, the, the Democrats or certain Democrats don't have a more aggressive, that's, that certainly is different degrees that there's different it's different degrees. and and again, I'm, I'm not choosing a side here. I'm just saying like, and you could take immigration, you could take national security, you could take foreign policy.

00;10;33;14 - 00;11;09;15
Chris
the our relationship with Israel, if you really listen to what the candidates are saying and not just listen to what the the sound bites from the media is saying, it's it's not always as black and white as oftentimes that we think that it is. and so where my, my point there is, is that when we, yes, we should feel these are important issues like the this life issue is, is, is is in my opinion, the most important issue.

00;11;09;17 - 00;11;37;06
Chris
I think the Bible would, would tell us that, that is the most important issue. And that's why in my sermon I said when policies I included life in there, But for us to like kind of like we've got it figured out and this is the way that it is across the board, I think is, is is there ought to be some humility, in this.

00;11;37;06 - 00;12;08;22
Brenton
Okay. So just to kind of come at you from, I guess maybe what I've been hearing since you, since you gave that, you know, specifically with, with the life issue, I think the concern was that when you when we put character in the same level as policy, the there's obviously I think I think it's clear to say that one of the candidates will be better in that situation, even though he's not perfect.

00;12;08;22 - 00;12;33;04
Brenton
He has said that he does not support a federal ban on abortion, which I think means that he's not, by definition, pro-life. Right? but it is clear, I think, that and over his last four years that he would be better on that issue. We would see less death because of that. Is that is that a bad reason to, to vote for someone.

00;12;33;06 - 00;12;43;27
Brenton
Right. Like, should we not encourage even even if it's to a certain degree less death through our vote?

00;12;44;00 - 00;13;11;09
Chris
Yeah, I think that's a huge consideration. Yeah, absolutely. but I don't think that's a it's the only consideration, which is, is, you know, I'm going to reiterate again, I, I'm not telling you to vote, for him or not to vote for him. I'm not saying that. I mean, that wasn't my intention. I'm still not saying it honestly.

00;13;11;12 - 00;13;39;00
Chris
I want the people of Harmony Bible Church to wrestle with the character issue and to understand that that's not something that simply because, someone has a less, you know, a better I say this way, a better view when it comes to the life issue, that we can just whitewash the character and not be concerned about the character issue.

00;13;39;03 - 00;14;10;00
Chris
Okay. because I just, I, I find a lot of people, unfortunately, and, and I'm not even saying necessarily in our church, like, I, I see much more of this outside of our church. but but a lot of people just like the character in issue, is, is really because and people will say, well, the other candidate has major, you know, character issues as well.

00;14;10;03 - 00;14;38;26
Chris
Absolutely. Agree 100%. but that just that doesn't negate the, the point that we need to recognize. And one of the passages that I shared, was from, from Mark, chapter six, under the, the, the character, you know, the character heading. And I actually got a question on some of the like, why did you why did you include Mark chapter six?

00;14;38;26 - 00;15;01;08
Chris
And it's the it's the story of John the Baptist actually gets beheaded and instead of like, what? What's going well, John the Baptist got beheaded because he, he spoke prophetically to to Herod the, the person in power, the politician. And he said, it's not right for you to have your brother's wife. And so there's a character issue there.

00;15;01;08 - 00;15;35;02
Chris
And he called it, he called it out. And the church that's the church is to to have a prophetic role in culture. We're not to, to, to just blindly follow, our, our, our, our leaders. and we are to, to, to call them out, when, I think policies and character are, are, are falls short of of what Scripture would, would call us to.

00;15;35;02 - 00;16;01;11
Chris
And I would further say, some people would say, well, that person that's not necessarily a Christian, or not a, Christian leader, Herod was wasn't either of those things. And then you go to the Old Testament and the prophets, get they get in trouble all the time. Yeah. Because what are they doing? They're speaking truth to to to to to those in those in power.

00;16;01;11 - 00;16;23;20
Chris
Sometimes they were Israel kings, sometimes those were other were their leaders. You they Daniel with Nebuchadnezzar, the prophets would actually go to the nations around Israel to and speak against them. And, and, and so, that that is, I believe, the role of, of the church as well.

00;16;23;22 - 00;16;51;20
Brenton
Okay. So, I would if I had to kind of put, the major issue out of out of what you said, kind of the crux of the matter was you kind of equating character with, with policy and can can you just kind of I know you did a little bit there, but can you kind of make that that argument for us of why those in your mind, those two are on the same level?

00;16;51;23 - 00;17;16;19
Chris
Well, I know, yeah. I mean, while they're necessarily on the same level, I don't know that I necessarily put it that way. But, I would begin by just saying, I think that the Bible says, says and tells us that character is, absolutely important for, for our leaders. And, so that's that's where I began to maybe I could even end on that.

00;17;16;19 - 00;17;24;14
Chris
But to go a little bit further, and, and, and to talk about how that flows out of leaders, you know.

00;17;24;15 - 00;17;26;13
Brenton
I.

00;17;26;16 - 00;17;44;18
Chris
I've heard one pastor say, you know, the policies are going to last a lot longer than the leaders character. I, I actually disagree with that. Like, because the character is like this, this person will not be enough for him. You know, she he or she will only be in office another you know how many of her years, but their policies may be.

00;17;44;23 - 00;18;32;18
Chris
But the problem is, is that that the leaders character influences the culture and what becomes acceptable in our culture. Last arguably longer than the policies do. Okay. So, you're maybe maybe you remember this a little bit, but we can go back to the Bill Clinton days and I've got two comments about the Bill Clinton days. I was in and then college and then, young adult during those days and one thing I noticed is that some of the same Christian leaders who thought that character was a really big issue then don't seem to think it's as big of an issue now, which, actually compromises our witness.

00;18;32;20 - 00;19;01;27
Chris
A and then B and this is a little bit the other side of the coin, that national conversation about what was going on with Bill Clinton, it just made it more those things became more acceptable in our culture because our president, is able to do it, to stay in office, to lie about it and to fudge the truth, you know, literally arguing about what the meaning of the word is.

00;19;01;27 - 00;19;38;03
Chris
It is. And I maybe remember, is that, like, do you remember that, like, literally like, and, and and that was, that was negatively impacted. So if, if, if we accept things in our, in our leaders, that means it becomes more acceptable in our culture and that that leads towards the degradation of the culture. So, I really I maybe you can tell from my voice here, I, I feel very passionate about this guy.

00;19;38;03 - 00;20;08;04
Chris
I think a lot of Christians are missing this and we we somewhat have a my a little bit, I think of a myopic kind of view. And so, yes, policies surrounding life, but also things like, you know, homosexuality and transgenderism and, and those kind of issues they, they do have, they will have a, a long term impact.

00;20;08;07 - 00;20;44;11
Chris
Okay. but I, I, I don't even want to suggest, I want to make the case. I think we see this biblically, but I think you can even look at it socially if we if we look at it historically, that, those things become, that, that are, are accepted in our leaders become accepted in, in culture and it, it, it it goes, it goes downhill from, from that.

00;20;44;13 - 00;20;51;10
Chris
so I'm, that's why I, I believe this character issue is, is is really, really important.

00;20;51;12 - 00;21;19;02
Brenton
Yeah. I'm processing that a little bit because I think, I agree with you that there are real repercussions that come out of, a leader's bad character. I think we, we see that over and over in the Old Testament, right? I mean, even, you know, we see a giant moral failure of of David. And, you know, I think some of it, even it just going back to Bill Clinton, like, it's not like none of that stuff happened before.

00;21;19;02 - 00;21;28;27
Brenton
It was just public. And now it's a it's it's more okay for that stuff to be publicly. yeah. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I think.

00;21;28;28 - 00;21;38;18
Chris
Well, it wasn't it. So you go back to talk about like JFK for sure. It wasn't it, it wasn't accepted back then.

00;21;38;20 - 00;21;39;15
Brenton
but it was quiet.

00;21;39;17 - 00;22;38;04
Chris
It was quiet. Yeah. it was accepted with Clinton and you look at, you know, not not that the culture was great in the 1960s and 50s, 60s. And, and I also would add this right around this issue issue. If as Christians, we say that we believe in a biblical sex ethic, and we want to stand on that and, and yet if we, we have politicians who we just kind of kind of whitewash how they fall short in that we do that, we actually, you know, where's our where's our standing?

00;22;38;04 - 00;23;05;28
Chris
And it's like how how can I say, you know, it matters. and, and I think that this is getting overblown. It's being used against us. But it you say, okay, you, you only care about this issue when it, it, it has to do with, homosexuality or transgenderism when it, when has to do over here. That's not it's all of a sudden it's not important anymore.

00;23;06;00 - 00;23;28;02
Chris
Yeah. So we need to we need to be able to call sin sin wherever that sin sin is. And that whether it be in a political office or whether it be in the church, right. for sure. And again, yeah, this will be the third time I said, I probably say it like three more times over. We're done.

00;23;28;02 - 00;24;11;02
Chris
This conversation I am I'm not telling people don't vote for for this person. I think again, that is something that each and every one of us needs to prayerfully consider. And, and I, I'm not like I'm not running in my hands about who the people of me Bible Church vote for. and I just want us to, to, to wrestle with this and, and I would hope that maybe then the next time we have an election, we have, some different choices than we have this time.

00;24;11;04 - 00;24;29;21
Brenton
So given all of that and, you know, acknowledging that we don't we don't have the greatest candidates, maybe that's an understatement. what, in your opinion, is wrong with abstaining from the election altogether?

00;24;29;23 - 00;24;57;22
Chris
Well, I do want to say that there are believers who, I think this is a matter of conscience. I like I, I think if someone abstains because they say I can't vote for either candidate, and my abstaining is actually a vote of protest or whatever. I think that that is a fair way to consider it.

00;24;57;22 - 00;25;12;18
Chris
If it's been prayerfully thought through, I think abstaining just simply because, well, you know, what does it matter whatever that that's yeah, it needs to be an active abstaining not a passive abstaining.

00;25;12;21 - 00;25;34;10
Brenton
The last thing that you had mentioned, your fourth point on that Sunday was that you weren't going to tell the congregation who to vote for. You mentioned that a few times today. the reason that you gave for this was that if you do, we run the risk of compromising the gospel. And I'm, I'm curious if you can kind of flesh that out for me.

00;25;34;10 - 00;25;45;13
Brenton
I have I have kind of some questions on it, but could you just kind of run through why you think that would be compromising the gospel, or at least run the risk of compromising the gospel?

00;25;45;15 - 00;26;22;12
Chris
Sure. I think I have some more to answer that, in a roundabout way. a couple of, a couple of times, in this conversation and, in the service, but, it would go back to, when from the, the pulpit, pulpit of Harmony Bible Church, I or one of the other pastors elders stands up and, in that in that place, in that position, we are we are speaking for the Lord.

00;26;22;14 - 00;27;09;08
Chris
and, I think to endorse a certain party or candidate gives the idea and, Some people maybe would, take this more than others, but gives the idea that to, to, to to vote this way means that, you know, this is the Lord's side and to not vote this way or would not be honored to to say that there is a certain Christian way to, to to vote or person to vote for and that Christians must, must vote that way.

00;27;09;11 - 00;27;34;18
Chris
And, and I, I can and only should say like, this is the way we should do it. If I can go to, if I can go to the scriptures. Sure. and so part of this, you know, like I, and I mentioned this is like I, I, I hear this rhetoric that Christians can't vote this way.

00;27;34;20 - 00;28;13;03
Chris
And what, what that, that it, it's just giving the idea is that what makes you a Christian is faith in Jesus. And then also how you how you vote over, over here. And it at least runs the risk of there being gospel confusion. Now, I, I want to be clear, like and I said this, are the gospel does have application implications for how we vote.

00;28;13;06 - 00;28;41;24
Chris
Okay. In other words it's not like you can believe the gospel and you can, you know, well let's go back to the life thing. I don't, I don't think a Christian should be able to think like I can believe the gospel, I can be a believer. And when it comes to this matter of abortion, you know, you can kind of have a variety of views on that.

00;28;41;26 - 00;28;57;20
Chris
There is a Christian viewpoint on on abortion. Yeah. Okay. That's not the same thing is, is there's a Christian way to way or a person to, to to vote for.

00;28;57;23 - 00;29;29;11
Brenton
Okay. so just to push back a little bit on that, if, if we say, you know, if a Christian says yes, I agree that there is a Christian way to look at the life issue, then is it a big jump to say then there's a Christian, policy to vote for. Right. So like if we if we accept this here, then it follows from there that we want to pick the best person as a Christian to follow that, you know, to follow that conviction.

00;29;29;12 - 00;29;32;05
Brenton
We want to pick the best person for that issue.

00;29;32;08 - 00;30;15;11
Chris
Absolutely. But my point is, is it's, it's it's not it's muddier than that when it comes to actually who we're voting for. Yeah. And I, I yeah I think that, that there are more issues in an election than, than simply the, the life issue, which is, as I, I think I've already pointed out, not as clear in every instance as we might, think that it is.

00;30;15;12 - 00;30;16;04
Chris
Okay.

00;30;16;07 - 00;30;34;26
Brenton
So would there be a situation, you know, where two candidates are so diametrically opposed that you'd be you'd be willing to take that leap and say, hey, this this is the better candidate here. or is this kind of just across the board?

00;30;34;29 - 00;31;10;27
Chris
I don't want to say never, because I want to be open to the, the, leading of the spirit in this. I'd have to be really, convinced of and and inclined that in it is also is like what? What about the people in our congregation who maybe view things differently? than we do? I mean, talking about the life issue I'm talking about there are other kind of things, like when you talk about the immigration, you know, we know about immigration, foreign policy, like you.

00;31;10;27 - 00;31;19;23
Chris
And I'd like one of your concerns is the wars where, you know, where lots of people are getting killed. That's a like for you. That's a life issue, right?

00;31;19;24 - 00;31;22;04
Brenton
I think it's just as important as abortion.

00;31;22;07 - 00;31;24;12
Chris
Oh, okay. So, you know, you're making.

00;31;24;14 - 00;31;26;02
Brenton
No, I said so.

00;31;26;05 - 00;31;49;01
Chris
So what if someone has a better position and and I'm assuming that they do. This is this is completely hypothetical. What if someone has a better position on abortion. But I a worse position on. I'm, I'm war on that now then it becomes a we've got to wrestle with this and think through this. And if I historically.

00;31;49;01 - 00;31;50;28
Brenton
That's what we've been do in the last.

00;31;50;28 - 00;32;28;09
Chris
20 years. And my, my point then is, is like I like, like this is the way that Christian should, should vote. Well, Wow. And again, I think we also need to affirm that, every believer has the Holy Spirit, and every believer has a conscience. And as pastors, my job is to, teach the Word of God.

00;32;28;11 - 00;32;50;12
Chris
and then I think I also need to, to encourage people to use the resources God has given them, which includes the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and the God given mind. and to think through this and and and to pray through this, while I'm really clear, we're really clear at Harry Bible Church about the abortion issue.

00;32;50;13 - 00;33;23;22
Chris
Yep. We're really clear about, sexuality issues. we're really clear about about justice, issues, which maybe we need to talk about that a little bit more to just clarify some things there. But, but, but, things like compassion and mercy and, submitting to authority, like, in all of those kind of things. and so I, I, we want to teach that and we want to make the gospel front and center.

00;33;23;22 - 00;33;33;22
Chris
And then we also want to give room and space for people to, have to wrestle with, with this.

00;33;33;24 - 00;33;57;29
Brenton
Do you think that, you know, as you, as you communicated that fourth point and, you know, kind of conflating the gospel with, with who are voting for. Do you think that that kind of comes downstream from culture, like evangelical culture? We've had a lot of Christian leaders that have conflated those things. Do you think that that's kind of where that's coming from?

00;33;58;02 - 00;34;02;18
Chris
I think that, I think that's a big part of it. Okay.

00;34;02;20 - 00;34;06;19
Brenton
And yeah, I think you're, you're pushing back against things that have happened.

00;34;06;21 - 00;34;11;29
Chris
Yeah. And, and

00;34;12;01 - 00;34;44;10
Chris
I, I, you know, people should, should understand my story a little bit I think here too. So I was at Liberty University during the, the Clinton years. So Jerry Falwell senior Moral Majority and, like and and I just want to say this, I'm very thankful for my time at liberty. I'm thankful, like God used Jerry Falwell in some ways in embarrassing, significant ways.

00;34;44;12 - 00;35;08;08
Chris
and I'm particularly thankful for the university and yet, his it's he was a pastor, and he was. So he spent more and I watched this. He spent more time in politics than he did pastoring his he didn't pastor his church. I went and went to his church, some like he he did. And he was so wrapped up in in the politics.

00;35;08;08 - 00;35;34;01
Chris
And also what happened is people began to to affiliate the gospel in the church and evangelicalism with, a, a, a party and political like power. And it just it, it in some ways we're still recovering and I'm he's not the only one, but we still recovering from the damage. And I think the damage just goes on and on.

00;35;34;04 - 00;36;02;18
Chris
and and if I could, if I could just hopefully everybody will hear this because because I, because I see this, I, we have a lot of young people who, have left the church or don't want anything to do with the church because they have seen believe that the to that the church means and supports this over here.

00;36;02;22 - 00;36;30;17
Chris
Yeah. And I'm not and I'm not talking necessarily about, policies here. I'm talking about supports this this kind of person, this kind of individual. Now some of their reaction is because the policies that they've been more educated by the world, but then by the word of God, they, they, they don't like the, you know, the church's stance again, on the abortion issue.

00;36;30;17 - 00;36;50;06
Chris
And the world has had more influence on them, and we need to do a better job of discipling them. but they, they affiliate, you know, evangelicalism with a certain, you know. Yeah, yeah.

00;36;50;09 - 00;36;51;15
Brenton
No, I think I think that's helpful.

00;36;51;15 - 00;37;22;06
Chris
And and like, like so so what? I think we should really ask, what is this going to do for the long term health of, of, our young adults, teenagers and kids? If the church is too tied to a political party? I what's that going to say to them about what it means to follow Jesus. I'm just I think we just need that, we need to wrestle me and ask.

00;37;22;06 - 00;37;23;03
Chris
Yeah about them.

00;37;23;04 - 00;37;41;21
Brenton
Okay. you mentioned justice for a second. What can you talk about that a little bit. What what would. Because you know that's a, that's a term that's been thrown around a lot in the last five years. What what's your concern with with justice.

00;37;41;23 - 00;38;23;04
Chris
Well I think again we need to go to the Bible and when it talks about Bible talks about justice, it talks about things like the way that we treat widows and orphans and Bible uses Sojourner would be our immigrants, term that we'd do today. and those are our, our justice issues. So, you know, Micah six eight, what does it mean to know me, to walk humbly, to do justice and to, walk humbly before you?

00;38;23;04 - 00;38;53;08
Chris
God? To do justice means to give people their God given rights, to treat them as God would have them to, to be treated. And so there's that. And then there's also the Department of Justice, like the Romans 13 that the state has the responsibility to punish wrongdoers. They they're given the power of the sword. And so there's, there's there that's also a justice issue.

00;38;53;08 - 00;39;29;01
Chris
So are we actually, rewarding right and punishing. Wrong. So it's it and and so there are and then of course, there's a misunderstanding of justice when it talks about like, You know, we can get back into this issue with the LGBTQ issues of like, you know, justice means like they should have all of the rights when it comes to marriage and things like that.

00;39;29;01 - 00;39;54;05
Chris
Well, that's that that's a misunderstanding. That's not that's not what the Bible's talking about in terms of, of justice. there so again, this is this takes us thinking carefully, think carefully about what? And we can go back to the immigrants and I know bring immigrants immigration like, yeah, you know, what about illegal immigrants, right. Well, yeah, the the government has a responsibility to protect its citizens and to have an orderly society.

00;39;54;07 - 00;40;27;09
Chris
So that doesn't I'm not saying that we should welcome all the illegal immigrants and that like that, like. Yeah. You know, that's that's that's fine. Yeah. That's not. No. The our, our government has completely made just a train wreck of that for, for everybody. And we need a better a much better solution. But justice would actually tell us as well.

00;40;27;11 - 00;41;00;24
Chris
that if there's an illegal like I say this way. What our position is or what our government should do about illegal immigrant and how I should think about and talk about and treat illegal immigrants are two different things. Sure. Like, I think it's it's it is right. It's right. And just, for for us to say, illegal immigration is illegal.

00;41;00;27 - 00;41;10;26
Chris
It should not be allowed and there should be a legal process for. Country of immigrants. Okay. So let's so but there should be a legal way to, to.

00;41;10;29 - 00;41;11;12
Brenton
We should have.

00;41;11;12 - 00;41;43;16
Chris
Borders and we should have borders. and and like in, in all of that and it's a, it's a tragedy what's happening just all the way around here. It's, it is just. Yeah. That's a different and I can maybe I can hold that position and, and I, I think it's as Christians I actually this is where I would go on record to say, I think Romans 13 actually tells us that that's the Christian position.

00;41;43;18 - 00;42;19;13
Chris
Okay. and then at the same time, the Christian position is, is, that I should recognize that these people are made in the image of God and that they have inherent worth and value in my heart towards them should be one of compassion and love. And that, I should to what what what I, what I can do is to to to care for them.

00;42;19;15 - 00;42;37;00
Chris
if the Lord puts me in, in, in the position to actually to do that. So the attitude of like of kind of a hatred or animosity towards illegal immigrants, I think is, is, some biblical the.

00;42;37;02 - 00;42;41;02
Brenton
Yeah, I think I'm glad that you clarified that. I was going to ask you to.

00;42;41;08 - 00;43;11;01
Chris
Well, there's, there's, there's noone like, okay. Like, what's so missing from much of this is like New Orleans. Like it's, it's like we and this is like people like tell us who to vote for. Like, well, because we want, like, just, you know, like don't. But there's, there's a nuance here to to many of these conversations and and, and just again, I think the Lord wants us to, to wrestle with that.

00;43;11;01 - 00;43;34;05
Chris
And a lot of times you know, I take a lot like Tim, Tim Keller, everybody knows that I respect him. And he took a lot of heat from all sides. because of, you know, the nuance that he often spoke, about, on these issues and. Yeah.

00;43;34;05 - 00;44;01;26
Brenton
Well, that that is a big issue that I've noticed in when we talk about politics, you know, that it's so easy for people to see everything in black and white. And so, you know, what happens is, if I give any pushback on on the Republican side, the the first reaction is, well, what about what about Biden? And it's like, yeah, I think he's wrong to like, but that doesn't excuse the right side of the aisle to.

00;44;01;26 - 00;44;23;11
Brenton
And those are conversations that we need to have to hold our leaders accountable. And so can can both be wrong. Is that is is that okay. Yeah. And so yeah I think you're right about nuance. I think but but at the same time, you know, maybe there is a better option than, than the other one. And so right.

00;44;23;12 - 00;44;53;07
Chris
Now, yeah, you know, you're right. It's, it's, I think it's such a great point is we, we we clearly in our minds see, like, this is this is this, this is wrong. And so that somehow precludes us from also pointing out, well, this might be less wrong, but it's totally still wrong. and I can, you know, I go back to the life issues like abortion at any point up until the baby is born.

00;44;53;07 - 00;45;23;17
Chris
Is is heinous. Yes. Abortion is six weeks is too. Yep. and I, I've been a supporter of the incremental approach to, getting rid of Roe v Wade. And it was it was successful. and, there are people who maybe would even disagree with me on that. Whatever. but,

00;45;23;20 - 00;46;11;12
Chris
We we need to be be really, really clear about this. Is that, a baby who is six weeks old in the mother's womb. I use the word baby. very intentionally. to terminate that. Is this tragic? As if the baby was 39 weeks old. Yep. and so, I, I it yes, we may and many, many people, who are listening to this may say, okay, we need to vote for the person who's going to have the less, pro-abortion position.

00;46;11;12 - 00;46;35;20
Chris
Yeah. And I, I, I can appreciate that. And I, you know, I'm like, okay, if that's where the Lord leads you to. But I want everybody to understand. To understand is that the six week or the 12 week or the 15 week, is is not, a Christian position either. Yep. Yeah.

00;46;35;23 - 00;46;53;02
Brenton
Well, and I think, you know we've talked about kind of incremental versus abolishment. Right. And I think that that's it's kind of where it leads you is yeah. Our ideal here is that it would just be abolished immediately. And yet you know there's who knows how that's going to work out. Right.

00;46;53;05 - 00;47;25;25
Chris
yeah. And so I know I know we're really getting into it now, but I really want every everybody to to think about this is because, actually everything going downhill. If the, if, if a party, the Republican Party accepts, like this is going to be our we're basically have a pro-choice position. It's not as drastic as the Democratic position that how do how do you come how do you come back from that.

00;47;25;27 - 00;47;27;21
Brenton
It's a great question.

00;47;27;24 - 00;48;23;09
Chris
And so we need to, we we we need to like okay, okay. Maybe we, you know, maybe you go one way. You're but let let's, let's let's recognize like we we got a battle to fight over here for sure. and because, you know, and rightfully so people, you know, I mentioned the character issue, rightfully so, when some of the feedback I'm getting I've gotten is as well, like the abortion issue is a character issue to your abs that you're absolutely right, 100%, someone who is willing to kill, a child at 39 weeks or whatever, you know, any, any time, but 39 weeks, that's a major moral issue.

00;48;23;12 - 00;48;29;01
Chris
but it's a major moral issue. 15 weeks to, Yeah.

00;48;29;04 - 00;48;48;20
Brenton
So, there's a lot more that we could have gotten to here. there's so many things to talk about with this topic, but I want to I want to kind of wrap this up. We're getting close to an hour here, so how should we respond if the person we vote for doesn't win?

00;48;48;22 - 00;49;24;14
Chris
Yeah. it's a great question. because, for somebody listening to this podcast, that's going to be the case. Sure. And if that surprises any of you, you know, we we we do have people at our church that, that, that vote differently. And, and I hope that we can, be okay with that. and we can rally around like we have one Lord.

00;49;24;16 - 00;49;43;11
Chris
and that, somebody can vote differently than me and still be my brother or sister, in Christ. And that doesn't that might not mean that that erases concerns, that we might have someone votes this way or that way. but, we got to keep the gospel friend center, so. Well, and.

00;49;43;11 - 00;49;46;07
Brenton
One thing on that real faith.

00;49;46;10 - 00;49;49;09
Chris
Now you're using the one thing. Sorry. That's okay.

00;49;49;11 - 00;50;24;09
Brenton
Convince people. Right. Like, let's, let's let's use, language that is, seasoned with salt as we talked about earlier. But if you if you feel like there's a brother or sister who is not thinking about an issue wisely, then have the discussion talk, right. like, I mean, I just wouldn't want there to be this division without like, a conversation and a Christian brothers and sisters talking about the issue and trying to convince each other.

00;50;24;11 - 00;50;26;09
Brenton
And it was good.

00;50;26;12 - 00;50;58;29
Chris
Yeah. So, the final thing here in terms of what do we do, I think this is what do we do whether or not, the candidate that we, we vote for, candidates that we vote for because by the way, the, their other important elections, happening or races that are happening besides, you know, the presidential one, like even here in our state.

00;50;59;02 - 00;51;06;21
Chris
and if you live anywhere in southeast Iowa, you get multiple fliers every day. for the two ladies that are,

00;51;06;23 - 00;51;07;12
Brenton
Sure. A lot of money.

00;51;07;19 - 00;51;43;16
Chris
For a for the US, the US, a lot of commercials. And that's a, that's a really that's a really important one and has from in many ways has as much, maybe practical application for our, daily life than the presidential race does. but so there are other important ones to pay attention to and, and to think about that, but, I, I was in my devotional time, I'm read through the gospel of Mark came to, to Mark 13, which is, part of the Olivet Discourse.

00;51;43;16 - 00;52;19;12
Chris
It's one of the most debated chapters in the entire Bible, difficult to interpret. And Jesus is talking about, first of all, the destruction of the temple, in Jerusalem. And then he it seems like the end of end of days and of times. And so it's sometimes it's highly debated as to, you know, is this all just in in 70 A.D., when Titus came in, you know, ransacked the temple and leveled it, or is it, you know, or it is it partially now and partially in the future?

00;52;19;17 - 00;52;48;14
Chris
I think personally, I think he's talking about, yes, he has the, the near future in view, but then he's also kind of giving a paradigm for what things are going to be like throughout the rest of history, all the way up until the end. And so he will say things like, you know, you're going to hear of wars and rumors of wars and, you know, and there's going to be earthquakes and famines and all of these kind of things.

00;52;48;17 - 00;53;11;23
Chris
and but he's talking to his disciples and, and so the the big picture of what he talks about is, is ultimately like, he's coming back, the Son of Man is coming back in power and great glory. And he says, here's how, here's how you are supposed to live in. And in the meantime, he says this don't be anxious.

00;53;11;25 - 00;53;49;12
Chris
Don't be alarmed. Be on guard. Stay awake over and over and over again. All of this is like, it's going to get really bad. And and I think again, it's I think he's really saying this in multiple periods during, throughout history. It's going to get really bad. One of the reasons I think that that is the case is because pretty much any Christian, not any Christian, pretty much at all times throughout the last 10,000 or 2000 years, Christians in some part of the world have gone under, been going under massive, tribulation and difficulty.

00;53;49;15 - 00;54;19;25
Chris
Okay. and we know, at the end that there will be this especially difficult time and people have disagreements about when exactly that's, that's going on, you know, but again, don't be afraid. Don't be anxious, stay awake, be on guard over and over again. And then one last thing. And the gospel must be preached to all nations, and then the end will come.

00;54;19;27 - 00;54;45;07
Chris
Okay. and and so what do we do? in, in next Tuesday and beyond? Because if, by the way, if people what I hear is right, we're not even going to know on Tuesday night or Wednesday morning, he's going to be a while. Okay. regardless, though, do not fear harmony about what church brothers and sisters, do not fear.

00;54;45;09 - 00;55;15;04
Chris
Don't be anxious. Be honor guard. Stay awake, and let's give ourselves to spreading the gospel to all nations. because Jesus's in the end, Jesus is coming back and, should should he tarry for another thousand years? you know, I don't know that there will be a United States of America, certainly as we know it, it's not always going to be the way that it currently is.

00;55;15;06 - 00;55;54;24
Chris
And what is our hope? Our hope is not in our candidate getting, elected. Our hope is in Jesus. And, and the spread of the gospel. and so let's, let's take a surance in that and trust that God is sovereign and his plan will not fail. And then let's also try to contribute to, a peaceful, orderly society, even if, again, things don't go the way we want them to, or we even question how exactly things come about, the way that they they come about.

00;55;54;27 - 00;55;58;12
Brenton
Good. I got nothing bad there.

00;55;58;15 - 00;55;59;20
Chris
Okay.

00;55;59;23 - 00;56;00;29
Brenton
We wrapping it up?

00;56;01;01 - 00;56;40;15
Chris
Yeah. Maybe we should give him your email address. to do that. Yeah, but I, I hope everybody is listening. to the full, this full podcast and, and, you know, stepped out because they got maybe, upset or hurt by something that was said earlier. I, I, I want, everybody to hear again my, my hurting concern is just to, to faithfully shepherd our body the best that I can and help us to wrestle with all the things, the, the word of God says and all the issues as they, they're at.

00;56;40;15 - 00;57;12;16
Chris
And I, I know I'm not doing that perfectly by any stretch of the imagination. And, hopefully, you know, one of my biggest concerns when I talk about this issue is, is will, will, will people will actually who listen to to what I'm saying and what what my, my heart is and not, just like, hear me saying something that I'm, that I'm not because of how sensitive an issue of an issue is.

00;57;12;16 - 00;57;22;02
Chris
So I hope that that will be the case and, that this grace for me. But I want to really know there's there's there's grace, for all of you as well.

00;57;22;03 - 00;57;37;03
Brenton
Yeah. I, I appreciate your intention with with all this and, Yeah, all jokes aside, if you do have any questions, feel free to get Ahold of us. grab us on a Sunday. Grab me on a Sunday. I don't know, but I grab Chris. But,

00;57;37;05 - 00;57;38;04
Chris
You can try to grab me.

00;57;38;04 - 00;57;39;20
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, that'll work.

00;57;39;22 - 00;57;46;06
Chris
But the security might go if they try to grab it. Grab me that now.

00;57;46;08 - 00;57;58;17
Brenton
but, yeah, we're we're certainly happy to talk about these things and and hear, hear what your thoughts are. So, thank you guys for listening. Hopefully it must be made it through.

00;57;58;17 - 00;58;00;26
Chris
All of this. And we will talk to you next week.