00;00;13;02 - 00;00;42;18
Chris
That's why we got to know God's Word. And my theology really, truly does matter. Why I loved to preach God's word and why I try to do it so passionately. Because it's not just facts or things that that don't really matter to the day to day program of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

00;00;42;21 - 00;00;47;02
Brenton
Welcome back to further. I am Brenton Grim. Chris Carr, how are you doing?

00;00;47;05 - 00;00;56;10
Chris
Good. We're, ready for the push towards Christmas here. You know. Yeah. This time next week, we actually literally will be in the middle of our Christmas Eve services.

00;00;56;11 - 00;01;15;13
Brenton
That's right. Yeah. So, actually, speaking of that, we're going to be off the next two weeks of this podcast. The plan would be to start back, beginning of January. But just so you guys know, I want to start this show out by just saying. How about them bears?

00;01;15;15 - 00;01;33;29
Chris
Oh, boy. Yeah. Are you trying to ruin my Christmas? And, Come on. It's been a rough year for you. Yeah, well, it's been a rough two, three decades, but, Yeah. Anyway, I'll get back to the 80s. You weren't even alive. I don't think when the bears were in the Super Bowl the last time. So.

00;01;34;01 - 00;01;35;20
Brenton
No. 85, is that right?

00;01;35;22 - 00;01;36;25
Chris
Yeah.

00;01;36;27 - 00;01;40;13
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. Three years too late actually.

00;01;40;15 - 00;01;48;07
Chris
You were alive when they were in the Super Bowl when they won the last one. So they were you know they got beat by Peyton Manning back in 2006.

00;01;48;07 - 00;01;49;11
Brenton
But heartbreak.

00;01;49;14 - 00;01;51;25
Chris
Yeah.

00;01;51;27 - 00;01;52;06
Chris
Yeah.

00;01;52;11 - 00;01;53;22
Brenton
All right. Well let's get.

00;01;53;28 - 00;01;57;07
Chris
Your Vikings fans to come on. You haven't even ever won a Super Bowl.

00;01;57;07 - 00;02;29;03
Brenton
So I thought I was just breezed right past. Yeah. Yeah. You know hasn't been much better. So let's get into John five here. So verse 31 says if I bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. You briefly touched on this on Sunday. You said that because Jesus was responding to accusations he was adhering to the Jewish law, where the evidence of 2 or 3 witnesses was required to substantiate his claims.

00;02;29;06 - 00;02;38;25
Brenton
And so could you kind of give us the background on, on this part of the Jewish law? What what was the cause of this and why? Why was this a requirement?

00;02;38;27 - 00;03;08;06
Chris
Was Deuteronomy 19, verse 15 says, A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime. Then it goes on, you know, only on the evidence of 2 or 3 witnesses. So a charge be established. I think that the next verse or 16 kind of tells us why, it refers to malicious witnesses. And so I think the, the this is a safeguard from people being able to just falsely accuse someone.

00;03;08;06 - 00;03;50;17
Chris
And that person just is automatically believed. It's interesting that Paul actually carries this over into first Timothy five and he says that, you know, if there's an accusation against an elder, you need 2 or 3 witnesses, who can verify that and establish that charge. So, anyway, yeah, I think that that's, the basis of it and it's just a protection against, false witnesses, coming in and accusing someone, might be worth, though, at this point, just highlighting that this I think can has not can even really has been abused by church leaders at times.

00;03;50;20 - 00;04;16;11
Chris
To not listen to someone who, you know, does have a, a case against the church leaders and say they've done something, and just to, to dismiss it without any investigation. So I don't think this, that that means that we should just believe anybody, anytime there's an accusation made against a leader, like they're just, the necessary Lee.

00;04;16;12 - 00;04;56;12
Chris
That is true. But it also, I don't think, should be. And that we just dismiss it out of hand without there actually being an inquiry into it. And, there being seriously consideration about whether the what's being accused, you know, actually did, did take place. So I think there's a, there's a balance there. On either side, there are times where people falsely accuse leaders and then, I think there's, lots of stories that actually show where leaders actually are guilty and, and the church, unfortunately, has just not investigated it correctly, or properly.

00;04;56;17 - 00;05;26;23
Brenton
And yeah, that could bring up a whole conversation about justice. I think it is interesting to look back at the the old Testament law and see how, you know, that theocracy was kind of set up with, with justice and really even goes, goes to the point where if there is, a false accusation, it says after that in Deuteronomy 19 that that person would actually be, culpable for the, the punishment that the defendant would have gotten.

00;05;26;25 - 00;05;40;11
Brenton
Right. So they they had set up these safeguards where really it encouraged honesty. But yeah, it does get into some, some, Harry situations. If there's only one person that witnesses something. Yeah.

00;05;40;13 - 00;06;09;10
Chris
Well, I think, you know, the verse 18 says the judges shall inquire diligently. Yeah. Okay. So, in other words, like, there needs to be people who look into these accusations and, through the Holy Spirit, like trying to discern whether or not, or who, I guess I should say is telling the truth. You know, we have the church, what we call restoration.

00;06;09;12 - 00;06;28;24
Chris
Steps that Jesus gives in Matthew 18 that play into this as well. And then it actually is pretty complicated because there are times where we should bring in the authorities, and the church shouldn't be handling the situation on their own. Excuse me, but, you know, I don't mean to end. This is a little bit of a Pandora's box.

00;06;28;25 - 00;06;55;05
Chris
Is is a big, big topic. I just I just wanted to go on record by saying that Deuteronomy 19 should never, or and then, as Paul quotes it in verse, Timothy five should not be used to dismiss you know, accusations that people bring up against leaders without any type of inquiry. If there's not more than one person who is is witness that I don't think that that's faithful to what the scriptures are saying.

00;06;55;12 - 00;07;27;29
Chris
So they shouldn't necessarily be it shouldn't shouldn't just be accepted when an accusation is made, but it shouldn't also be simply dismissed. And there needs to be real wisdom from the leaders of the church to how to handle these matters. And and very the church leaders should be very careful to make sure that when the, the authorities, outside of the church should be brought in, that they should be brought in and there should be no, thought that we all we just are going to handle this internally when it's actually, a legal matter.

00;07;28;02 - 00;07;37;29
Chris
And churches have done that. Unfortunately. And it is almost always come to damage, the gospel and people. So, yeah.

00;07;38;01 - 00;08;00;09
Brenton
Well, it's also important to remember that, you know, Deuteronomy is setting up their civil law, which is not what we're doing in the church today. We still have a civil law that that is outside of the church. And so as we kind of not that these principles aren't, aren't, you know, good and should be followed and maybe that's, you know, something that should be handled that way in, in our civil courts today.

00;08;00;09 - 00;08;08;20
Brenton
But, you know, the church has probably different standards. And a lot of these were like capital crimes. And we're not really dealing with capital crimes inside of our church.

00;08;08;20 - 00;08;43;21
Chris
And for well, we we shouldn't be dealing with capital crimes. Now, that doesn't mean that we may not have an issue about restoration, about somebody's membership or involvement in the church, but that that's a, aside from what might be going on, if there are and accusations about, you know, and a lot of the times that unfortunately these come around the sexual, issues and, and accusations there and those, those should, you know, the in most cases the, the authorities should be brought in to that, I'm sure.

00;08;43;28 - 00;08;56;14
Chris
Yeah. Yeah. All right. We did not plan to go there, but it just as we were doing and like, I know people are going to be wondering, like, what about this? So yeah, that's good.

00;08;56;16 - 00;09;27;03
Brenton
One of Jesus, witnesses was his own works, specifically the miracles he performed. We could probably spend a decent amount of time talking about miracles as well. But you you mentioned that we must accept certain miracles if we claim to be Christian. So specifically Christ's incarnation and resurrection. And there's there's others in there. But considering the examples in Scripture, do we need to take every miracle as as a fact?

00;09;27;03 - 00;09;40;02
Brenton
So, like, think Noah's story or, the talking donkey that we see in Scripture, like, are these things, things that we need to take literally, or does it even matter?

00;09;40;04 - 00;10;13;14
Chris
Say yes, it matters. And yes, we need to take the miracles in the Bible, all of them literally. For one, the New Testament, views these like Noah, for example, as literally, true. Jesus takes Jonah and his story, in in The Great Fish is literally true. And so you, you start, saying certain parts of the Bible or, you know, like these miracles, they're not literal.

00;10;13;14 - 00;10;33;13
Chris
They're just, you know, whatever their stories or whatever, you you can quickly undermine the integrity of the Bible as a whole. And so now I'm not saying, by the way, that every part of the Bible should be read it, read literally. There's there's clearly parts of the Bible that, are not meant to be taken literal. They're different.

00;10;33;19 - 00;10;52;24
Chris
We've talked about this before. There's different types of literature. And you should read the type of literature, the way that type of literature is intended to be read. You know, for example, Song of Solomon, there's a lot of figurative language in, in there and, yeah, maybe, you know, maybe we don't want to go down that road.

00;10;52;26 - 00;11;25;02
Chris
But, yeah, I, I clearly do think that we should believe that those miracles are true. And quite honestly, if you can believe you know, take the incarnation. So we're about ready to celebrate that if if God could become a man and, a woman could become, pregnant without having sex, then is it all that hard to believe that, you know, God could speak through a donkey?

00;11;25;02 - 00;11;51;25
Chris
I mean. In resurrection, somebody could literally come back to life again after being dead for three days. So, yeah, I guess the big issue here is the the integrity of the scriptures. And, you know, there is a, a very well known pastor, in Atlanta, Georgia, who basically says you don't have to believe the Old Testament in order to, to be a Christian.

00;11;51;25 - 00;12;06;15
Chris
And the problem with that is, is that Jesus believed the Old Testament in its it appears that he believed all of it. And so if you tend to not believe those those stories is to not believe Jesus and then you've lost everything.

00;12;06;15 - 00;12;22;22
Brenton
So, yeah. So why do you think that we struggle to accept these things today, like you had brought up the, you know, our scientifically minded culture is is is it just a matter of how our culture thinks about science?

00;12;22;24 - 00;12;57;01
Chris
No, I think obviously that's a big part of it. I think another issue here is that we have, again, unfortunately, churches, pastors who have abused, the miraculous. And they claim to to be doing miracles in order to experience the miraculous things. And it's very clear that they have not. And they're just out for fame and fortune. And so we can become very cynical about the miraculous because of because of that.

00;12;57;04 - 00;13;33;03
Chris
And, and I think that it is hard, you know, like most of us cannot tell a story about where we've actually seen something that we would call miraculous take place. Right? I mean, like, like these, these stories of Jesus healing people, walking on water. I mean, you go on and on, like, I've never experienced those things, like, I, I actually do believe that I've experienced stories of people being healed through through prayer.

00;13;33;05 - 00;14;01;26
Chris
Okay. But not in not in the moment where I've known it happened in the moment. Like, you know, and I would say on a real regular basis. But, you know, it's not all that common for, for me to hear and, you know, these people or even I quite honestly prayed for this person and they, they were going in for an exam because they were told that they had cancer, and then they go in for the exam, the exam, or they get the MRI back and or whatever, and there's no cancer anymore.

00;14;01;29 - 00;14;18;27
Chris
And I mean, it literally just had one like, about a month ago. Here we pray for somebody in our services. They have been told that previous week that cancer was in their their liver. I think they're going to need a liver transplant. They were going to the doctor the next day, like, we're going to schedule this liver transplant.

00;14;18;27 - 00;14;43;24
Chris
And they go in and they're like, oh, your liver is perfectly fine. Like, yeah, I can't, you know, I don't know what was doing there, but it would seem like I've had enough of those experiences to to say, okay. And, and, and, and I guess the difference there is like, it's not been me like saying it like I'm healing you.

00;14;43;24 - 00;15;13;26
Chris
It was like a praying and asking the Lord and he he doesn't always do it, because I've got plenty of other examples of where I've I've prayed for people with again, cancer. And they've, they've died. Yeah. And and so, but to answer your question, I think one of the reasons is, like, most of us don't have these experiences where we literally see, you know, somebody is in a wheelchair, we pray for them, and all of a sudden they get up and and they they walk.

00;15;13;29 - 00;15;14;18
Brenton
Yeah.

00;15;14;20 - 00;15;20;08
Chris
And and so you take all of those factors together and it can be really difficult for us.

00;15;20;10 - 00;15;47;05
Brenton
I don't know, I think I think the scientific argument against miracles is silly, I guess. I mean, you know, the I think it's a completely different category than what science, actually studies. Right? So they study the physical world. And, you know, a miracle is, is by definition, outside of the physical world. Right? It's it's getting around the, the, the laws that have been set up here.

00;15;47;05 - 00;16;16;16
Brenton
And so, you know, like when we talk about healing, a proper response to that is not that or say, resurrection, that people don't rise from the dead. Right. Like because. Yeah, like they that's why it was a miracle, right? That's why it's cool. Because no, people don't rise from the dead. Sure. So I think, yeah, we there's, there's become such a cult of scientific, I don't know, cult of science and.

00;16;16;19 - 00;16;41;29
Chris
Yeah, but you know, you know, where this goes back to. It goes back to the days where there was, great conflict between varying religious views and, you know, you know, I'm not just talking about, like, verbal, kind of like where people are getting killed, and great wars that were over, religion. And so out of that, like the just negative reaction and all.

00;16;42;02 - 00;16;59;23
Chris
Well, the answer to that is like, we're not religion is the problem. So the answer is science. And and so now everything's got to be explained by science. And if it can't be explained then it's just not true. And we don't want to go back to that day because religion is what causes all the problems in the world.

00;16;59;25 - 00;17;24;16
Chris
And so we've lived in that for the last roughly 400 years. And it's really hard to, I mean, post-modernism here we know, is a deep conversation, and post-modernism was a reaction to that and in some ways put my postmodernism. Gibson, you know, there's a negative view on that, but there's some positive, parts of postmodernism because it started to say, like your your assumption that you have all the answers here is probably wrong.

00;17;24;17 - 00;17;57;13
Chris
Yeah. And hopefully I haven't lost the whole audience here, but I, I do want to I want to hit you up with this and see what see what you think. As much as we maybe, you know, have a dim view of the miraculous, at least when it comes to the Bible and religion. It seems to me, with our love for, superhero movies, that we really have something in us that that does believe or wants to believe the miraculous.

00;17;57;15 - 00;18;04;01
Chris
I don't know what you. What do you think about that? It just all of, like, Marvel still making, you know.

00;18;04;03 - 00;18;04;23
Brenton
Something like.

00;18;04;23 - 00;18;29;01
Chris
I mean, somehow. Right. But it's it is. It's like over and over and over again and this, this has been going on for, for as long as movies have been made and and why is this just we have this longing for that and we're attracted to this really supernatural power abilities. Yeah. Superheroes. You know.

00;18;29;01 - 00;18;54;14
Brenton
Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, the whole fantasy genre has been built around, you know, supernatural events or whatever. Yeah, it is interesting. I think likely it points to something deeper in ourselves that that longs for, something above ourselves. Right. And that that's kind of a universal trait that we see in storytelling from as early as we have it.

00;18;54;14 - 00;19;01;23
Brenton
Right. There's this this stuff. Yeah. I think you're right. There's just a longing in us for for something more than ourselves. Yeah.

00;19;01;25 - 00;19;09;04
Chris
As much as we want to get away from the miraculous, we really are know, seemingly incapable of doing so.

00;19;09;06 - 00;19;37;11
Brenton
Which is is kind of interesting is and we're getting off on so many tangents today. Let's. Okay. It seems like the, the modern atheists are more willing than ever to, accept the futility of their worldview and almost, you know, kind of brag about it. Right? So, like, they're the more I've, I've kind of listened to modern atheists, it's like they're they're excited to be stardust.

00;19;37;13 - 00;20;03;08
Brenton
They're excited to just be part of whatever it is. And then it's over and, and they can find some sort of meaning in that, which is just really interesting, because I don't think that's how the rest of humanity is ever lived. Like we've always yearned for more. For something above ourselves. But I don't know, maybe maybe there's just a, glimpse of honesty there coming out.

00;20;03;08 - 00;20;07;09
Chris
Yeah. Who's your favorite modern atheist?

00;20;07;12 - 00;20;07;17
Brenton
I.

00;20;07;17 - 00;20;08;26
Chris
Was I was going to be the.

00;20;08;28 - 00;20;37;00
Brenton
I would have said Hitchens, but he died. Yeah, I really I really did enjoy I think he was one of the more honest I give you my least favorite ones is. Yeah. Well, I mean Dawkins I think is just. Oh yeah. Totally dishonest. I don't know how Bill Nye got his fame but yeah there are, it's just that's one thing that really intrigues me is to listen to the other side and just see where they land and why they do.

00;20;37;00 - 00;20;45;02
Brenton
And so yeah, I listen to atheist probably more than I should. It's probably a weird omission for this show.

00;20;45;03 - 00;21;26;05
Chris
And it's there. Yeah, well it helps. I mean, if we are trying to win people who are maybe bent towards that understanding where they're coming from and their arguments and is, good, a necessary way to, to reach people because they do have, you know, a guy named Sam Harris, has a lot of influence. In and especially maybe over the young, some of the younger generations and so understanding, like what is appealing in his really theology, cosmology, those kind of things is helpful to try to, speak into that.

00;21;26;09 - 00;21;53;08
Brenton
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. He does have a lot of influence. He's talked about morality for a very long time, and he's got a lot of people convinced. You. Anyway, moving on from atheism, so kind of speaking of of miracles and evidence, you made a side comment on Sunday that I wanted to ask you about. You said that you would like to remove the phrase leap of faith from the Christian lexicon.

00;21;53;10 - 00;21;59;16
Brenton
And I agree with you, by the way. But could you explain, like what what you meant by that?

00;21;59;18 - 00;22;29;20
Chris
Well, again, I think that when people use that, they're like, well, I just gotta trust that, you know, what God says is true or that God's going to be there for me and that he's going to, you know, do this thing. In in the they mean without any like, evidence of whether or not God can actually be trusted to, to do what they are trusting him to, to do.

00;22;29;26 - 00;22;36;25
Chris
When we use the phrase leap of faith, I mean, like, I just got out, like there's no real reason to believe this, but I just got to take that leap.

00;22;36;27 - 00;22;36;29
Brenton
Of.

00;22;37;01 - 00;23;01;19
Chris
Faith like, yeah. And it's it's just, you know, not not the case. And, and, you know, Hebrews 11 is a great place, to go for this and to see what we're talking about. And the writer says, verse six, without faith is impossible. Please him. For who would draw near to God must believe that he exists, and he rewards those who seek him.

00;23;01;19 - 00;23;26;12
Chris
Okay, but then the next example is, is Noah by faith, Noah being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen in reverent fear, he constructed an arc for the saving of his household. Okay, so he he built this ark basis on on, you know, and you say by faith, but he's been faith because God spoke to him like like right.

00;23;26;15 - 00;23;52;16
Chris
God gave him evidence like like like I'm I'm I'm warning you about it. And, you know, God may not directly speak to us like that to Noah, but, like, is there evidence that we can look at that? What God calls us to is is is true. So I'm I should have faith that God is going to provide and he's going to meet my needs.

00;23;52;16 - 00;24;06;08
Chris
And there's another passage in, in Hebrews 13, you know, keep yourself free from the love of money for his promise. I will never leave you nor forsake you, okay? God's never going to leave me, never going to forsake me. I can I should have faith in that. Well, but is there evidence that that's going to be the case?

00;24;06;15 - 00;24;21;06
Chris
Well, yes. And I think I should be able to look back in my life and to see that in all the ups and downs, he's he never has done that. And I can look to the cross where he did forsake his son so that he might not forsake me. And so, you know, you go on and on and on and on here.

00;24;21;06 - 00;24;34;07
Chris
And there's God always gives us evidence. There's always reasons for us to believe that, that that we should trust God in whatever situation, whatever circumstances that we're.

00;24;34;11 - 00;24;43;26
Brenton
You know, would it be fair to say that, you know, our the role of faith in our lives is that we we trust that God is going to do what he says he's going to do? Yeah.

00;24;44;02 - 00;24;54;14
Chris
And I think that's that's a great definition of of faith is committing to, that, that God's going to keep his his word.

00;24;54;17 - 00;24;55;18
Brenton
Yeah.

00;24;55;21 - 00;25;25;15
Chris
And and again, it it's it's not like you're meeting somebody who you've never met before, you have no background information on. And they're saying, hey, just trust me, right? Like, just just just trust me. Just take a leap of faith and trust me. That's not that's not the way that it works. I mean, like even in Hebrews 13, he's talking about, you know, by faith, we could see that God's created the world and like, okay, let it really look at the world.

00;25;25;17 - 00;25;42;05
Chris
And and of course, Paul says, Romans one like creation. And we can see God in creation and we can look like, do you think we just got here? Just by accident? By accident. It's just a lot of time and a lot of chance. And here we are. Yeah. So.

00;25;42;11 - 00;26;08;22
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. So you brought, something up in a meeting this morning? Okay. That you didn't have time to get to on Sunday? And I thought it was interesting. So we're going to talk about it. Okay. It was from verses 43 and 44. From our passage. I'll just read it real fast. Says I have come in my father's name and you do not receive me.

00;26;08;24 - 00;26;24;23
Brenton
If anyone comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe when you receive glory from one another? And do not seek the glory that comes from the only God. So what? What stood out to you that you were talking about this morning?

00;26;24;25 - 00;26;51;00
Chris
Will? One of the things I would have done if I had more time, or had another message to preach, would actually be it through this text, to be able to talk about the different obstacles that Jesus presents here, to actually believing in him because there are a number of them. I did present one of them, which would be basically Biblio Sin Tricity said a word.

00;26;51;02 - 00;26;53;14
Brenton
That sounds right.

00;26;53;17 - 00;27;06;22
Chris
And what I mean by that is you so focused on the Bible that you, you miss the Jesus of the Bible, which is what the the religious leaders were guilty of. And I spent time on that. As we love the Bible and we fail to love Jesus.

00;27;06;24 - 00;27;07;14
Brenton
We'll talk about that.

00;27;07;14 - 00;27;33;03
Chris
A little bit. Yeah. You're coming up on that one. But this one is is like, we we love the, focus, attention, approval, maybe be the best word of other people. And we're always seeking and looking for that instead of, looking for the approval that comes from the only god. And so the word glory here.

00;27;33;05 - 00;27;54;26
Chris
One way that you can translate that is, wait, like what? We want to be waiting. We want to be seen as weighty, like we matter. Another way you could translate it is honor. We want to be honored like we are. We want to be seen as impressive. Like, And, that's just the human kind of condition.

00;27;54;26 - 00;28;19;07
Chris
It it plays its way self out, in different ways for different people. And we, we all struggle with it in different ways. But we all want to know that we we do that. We matter in that, we, are affirmed, accepted, loved, desired, cherished. And that might sound like there's really, really bad. Like, that's terrible.

00;28;19;13 - 00;28;46;09
Chris
And but it's not like that's we were created to have that experience. And one of the ways that I can say that is because Jesus says here, you do not seek the glory that comes from the only God, like there is a glory and honor. An acceptance or delight that comes from him. And Jesus actually says you don't seek it, which means that you should be seeking.

00;28;46;09 - 00;29;13;03
Chris
It is something that we should, want and desire. And I think that we were we were made for. So what I was talking about is like, and here's the great thing is, like, Jesus is saying, like you, you can't believe in me because you're looking for glory in the wrong place. And that means that through believing in him is actually how we get what we're looking for, that there is glory.

00;29;13;05 - 00;29;47;12
Chris
I called this all the time. Second Corinthians 318. You know, as we look at Jesus, as Paul says, we are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. Jesus is the one who actually makes us glorious. We are created to share in his glory. And now we've been saved so that we can truly experience what we were created for and that that one day when he comes, John says, first John, like we, we don't know what we're going to be like, but but when he comes back, we, we will see him as he is and, because we will be like him.

00;29;47;17 - 00;30;19;02
Chris
And in other words, he's going to, to make us like him just in the very scene, him for the the first time in all his glory will make us glorious like him. And so, I guess I, I could and maybe I am going on and on about this, but I, I think that the real challenge for us, if you want to get to the bottom line here is, believers specifically I'll speak to is like, am I going to live my life trying to get glory from other other people?

00;30;19;02 - 00;30;42;28
Chris
Am I going to say things and do things and act in certain ways and, and make my life being about? I need to get people to believe that I am something, somebody that I'm impressive like. Or am I going to realize that through Jesus? I have I have what I'm looking for already, and I can just live out of that assurance.

00;30;43;00 - 00;31;10;19
Chris
And this is a again, this is not somebody that that something that anybody ever fully gets. And so it's just a process. But I know like I just the reason this means so much to me is because this is just where I'm, I'm at is like, I know that my day today, battle is about like, am I going to live out of my father's delight and pleasure?

00;31;10;22 - 00;31;36;23
Chris
And I'm talking about my Heavenly Father's delight and pleasure? And believe what he says about me and how he feels about me. Or am I going to try to get that approval and, you know, love and delight in what I do? Something about me, this is going to be about me or about him. And what I do or what he's done and and that so that that's.

00;31;36;23 - 00;31;37;15
Chris
Yeah, that's it.

00;31;37;23 - 00;31;53;04
Brenton
I think it's something that we all struggle with to some degree. Okay. So what is someone that's listening to this now that is saying, hey, that's me. What's what's an action step that they can take care.

00;31;53;07 - 00;32;29;14
Chris
Oh yeah, that's a big, that's a big yeah, big question and a big issue. I really try to be succinct. I think part of it is, is to try to figure out about what what is it about your story that, specifically drives you to want to find glory in, from other people, you know, is it it was it that you didn't have a father who expressed his love and acceptance, you know, and delight?

00;32;29;16 - 00;32;50;13
Chris
Was relationship with a parent, who you felt like you always had to earn it and you were never good enough. Was it experiences that you had as a, as a kid, maybe in school where you were always seemingly the I personnel or you the one who was bullied, picked on? This is because of some sin.

00;32;50;13 - 00;33;23;26
Chris
But in in, in in your life, or sins in your life, that you, you make you feel like you're just not worthy. Was it something that happened to you, some abuse you experience? And the more you can drill down into that. So the more that you are aware of why you always are looking for for glory in this way or that way, I think the better that that you can become, it could be a mindset that you, you, you're looking at things incorrectly.

00;33;23;29 - 00;33;52;09
Chris
And you don't, truly understand who you are, and who you are in Christ specifically. It very well could be you don't have a correct understanding of the gospel. And what the gospel truly is. It could be because you need, people in your life. And this could be just another believer. It could be a counselor, a church leader who can actually, be the father's mediating presence.

00;33;52;09 - 00;34;24;25
Chris
And what I mean by that is, is like an actual physical human being in front of you, who can love you, and you can experience unconditional love and acceptance with, where, you know, so many people, they are continually wracked with this. I would call it a shame and a guilt. And and so they don't believe that they can actually be accepted unless they do.

00;34;24;28 - 00;34;26;17
Chris
They've they've got it together.

00;34;26;17 - 00;34;27;21
Brenton
Yeah.

00;34;27;24 - 00;34;49;26
Chris
Right. And so we all need people in our lives who will love us despite, how we don't have it to get, like when we mess up and when we screw up like, like they love. And I'm so thankful to have these people like, to to love me even though. Yeah, I really blew that over over here.

00;34;49;28 - 00;34;57;04
Chris
And that that can be something we just gotta seek for. And we've got to. We got to pursue. Yeah. So that's a I'm not trying to talk about that a lot, but.

00;34;57;04 - 00;35;17;20
Brenton
Yeah. Well it sounds like it, it kind of boils down to accepting that God actually loves us. That's I think for a lot of people that can be a hard thing to accept. And what that actual what that actually means for us that yeah, God actually does care about us like us personally.

00;35;17;23 - 00;35;41;12
Chris
Yeah. I guess the only thing I would say in response to that is like what I'm learning is, is that people just can't flip on the, the light switch in that. And I, you somebody can't just say, okay, you just need to accept that God loves you. Well there's it's really not a it it is partly a mental, shift, but it goes much deeper than that.

00;35;41;12 - 00;36;05;05
Chris
And that's where I talking about. You gotta figure out why the what's going on in your heart that makes you, you know why why do I I'm always, like, worried about what people are going to think. You know, for for me, like, just to give a practical example, why why is my focus like on a, on a Sunday, especially after Sunday.

00;36;05;05 - 00;36;21;10
Chris
More like always like how did that sermon go. How that's how that sermon go. Now, there's a good part of that. I was like, okay, I need to to grow in in my craft, so to speak, and I need to try to improve. But that it's not. That's a healthy way, but there's not a lot of times a healthy way.

00;36;21;10 - 00;36;43;06
Chris
It's just like, what are people thinking? And and so what is there like okay, I you can that's a problem. Great. That doesn't solve anything. Like what what is is underneath of that. And that's when you and it's a problem. We got to be willing to do what I would call our work. We gotta be able to do the work on that.

00;36;43;06 - 00;36;47;14
Chris
And that's a process and painful. And most of the time where I need help with that.

00;36;47;19 - 00;36;53;11
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks for that extra little piece there.

00;36;53;13 - 00;36;58;13
Chris
We had lots of little extra pieces. We're getting it in because it's going to be a while.

00;36;58;13 - 00;37;19;17
Brenton
So true. Make up for it. All right, let's move on to the last one here. So verses 39 and 40 say you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have it. You have eternal life. And it is they that bear witness about me. Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

00;37;19;20 - 00;37;32;09
Brenton
And your application from these verses was a warning to to not love Scripture more than we love Jesus. What do you think causes this problem?

00;37;32;11 - 00;38;04;03
Chris
I think it's very much tied to what we were just talking about. It's like if if, I am dedicated to the Bible, it's about what I'm doing, you know, I and what I know, it's about how I'm justifying myself, how I'm getting maybe attention for myself. And, I mean, you just go to all of the descriptions that Jesus gives of the Pharisees and talks about the Pharisees is like they're always promoting themselves, they're always putting themselves forward.

00;38;04;03 - 00;38;26;11
Chris
And most of it was out of like it was tied to anyway, the the Bible knowledge. I know this, we do this, we are this. And so I think it's it's just yeah it's again it's trying to seek glory from, from people. And then it's also judge like tied to this fact, like we can look down on other people because we know more than them.

00;38;26;11 - 00;38;39;13
Chris
I know more Bible than you. So that means makes me better than you. Which again, isn't it just another way of, you know, of what we talked about coming out to fruition in our lives? Yeah.

00;38;39;15 - 00;38;45;29
Brenton
So the solution to that is the same solution from the from the last problem.

00;38;46;02 - 00;39;14;13
Chris
Yeah. I, I would go a little bit further here and just say like, yeah, there's a repent. Like there's repentance that's needed. And to recognize that that's, there's pride bound up in, in this and that. We, we need to turn from it. And that's I mean, there's what Jesus is calling the the religious leaders here to repeatedly this.

00;39;14;13 - 00;39;27;22
Chris
You need to you need to repent. And they just thought everybody they had the Bible right. And everybody else needs to repent. So it's it's about loving, you know, it's loving the gift instead of loving the giver.

00;39;27;24 - 00;39;28;09
Brenton
Yep.

00;39;28;11 - 00;39;30;29
Chris
And

00;39;31;01 - 00;39;49;27
Brenton
Well, it's not something that necessarily happens overnight either. I think, you know, it can it can happen over time that we really do kind of fall in love with Scripture. And, and then it becomes more of a pursuit of knowledge than it does pursue the pursuit of God.

00;39;49;29 - 00;40;10;27
Chris
Yeah. I mean, it's this again, is like we we it's not the answers not to like, okay, we're not study the Bible. We're not going to really we should love the the the word. I mean, like you read some one 1975 verses about God's Word and loving it and passionate. It's it's beautiful. It's wonderful. It's amazing. Yeah.

00;40;11;00 - 00;40;32;11
Chris
And all of that. But it again, we have our human heart. We always want to take a good thing and make it the best thing. And you, you end up it's just idolatry. We we have sometimes we have Bible idolatry. And that sounds like you might sound like crazy to to people, but it's but it's true. It's just like, sex again.

00;40;32;13 - 00;41;05;02
Chris
Good thing God created us. That is good. But then we elevate that to a certain status, and we we worship it sort of, you know, it's it's, it's actually meant to point in us to to Christ and to be honoring and thank the Lord and all of that. And you could just go through money, marriage, relationships. And so I think that this is a real danger, though, for our, our church and, and one that we maybe have to increasingly navigate in the days ahead.

00;41;05;04 - 00;41;19;10
Chris
It's, it's born out of a good, a good thing. And yet we've got to be careful that, we don't become proud. And so Bible focus that we, we miss Jesus. Yeah.

00;41;19;12 - 00;41;35;16
Brenton
All right. Well, we will wrap it up there. Like I said at the top of this, we will be out the next two weeks, but hopefully be back with you on the 7th of January. So thanks, Chris. We'll talk to you next year.