00;00;42;12 - 00;00;53;19
Brenton
Well, welcome back to further. I'm Brittany Grim. This week we have, two different guys, here in the studio. So Paul Fischbach and Jeremiah Landon. How's it going, guys?

00;00;53;22 - 00;00;54;29
Jeremiah
It's going good, going good.

00;00;54;29 - 00;00;55;21
Paul
And glad to be here.

00;00;55;22 - 00;01;01;19
Brenton
Wonderful. Paul, I know you were a little under the weather. While you're preaching on Sunday, you feeling any better today?

00;01;01;22 - 00;01;05;07
Paul
Much better. Yeah. Got my energy back. Just lingering cough.

00;01;05;07 - 00;01;25;12
Brenton
That's it. Good. Well, I appreciate you, pushing through and preaching on Sunday. Both of you did a great job. It was, a lot of preparation to go into that, and so we appreciate that. I want to start out with, just as we go through all of these, you know, familiar stories of these miracles.

00;01;25;15 - 00;01;36;19
Brenton
I'm curious. It's been an interesting question to ask. What? What stood out to you really put in time in this time? And, studying it? Was there anything new that stuck out to you?

00;01;36;21 - 00;02;10;05
Jeremiah
I loved just seeing how, the stories connected. A lot of times we look at these, through isolated accounts. You just look at the feeding of the 5000, and then you just look at, Jesus walking on the water, and. And you, you isolate those. But it's one cohesive account, and they're building off of each other, to where we're going to be going here in the next few weeks of Jesus saying, I am the bread of life.

00;02;10;07 - 00;02;19;25
Jeremiah
And so, like, seeing just how these all are connecting into, into that his teaching right there in that statement.

00;02;19;27 - 00;02;50;28
Brenton
Yeah. I think, you know, when you most of the time this is preached, I don't know, maybe maybe that's an exaggeration, but I, I feel like it can just center around, you know, Jesus in the, in the middle of our storms. Right. And so it becomes very personal. It becomes about our experience rather than like taking this, this story as a whole in, in the book of John, realizing that this is Jesus explaining who he is and he's he's doing it to people.

00;02;51;00 - 00;02;59;04
Brenton
You know, that that have no idea. And so, yeah, we get a we get a much clearer picture of Jesus through these stories.

00;02;59;07 - 00;03;23;01
Paul
I think one of the things that stood out to me in a back up to the passage from the week before with the feeding of the 5000, but Jesus's intentionality through this whole chapter is just so obvious. He's not reacting. He's almost in command, like he's directing everything that's going on. He he's going to feed the 5000. He asked Philip a question, but he already knew ahead of time, like what he was going to do.

00;03;23;03 - 00;03;40;25
Paul
And then like at the end, they want to make him king. And he's like, no. And he just like slips away and he tells the disciples, go across the sea and like, he directs that and then he meets them on the sea. And then, you know, it's it's like he's in control of the whole thing. He's in command.

00;03;40;25 - 00;03;46;01
Paul
And you just see this incredible intentionality in everything he does through this whole chapter.

00;03;46;04 - 00;04;11;26
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. Good. So, one of the main points of both of your messages was the idea of the crowd wanting Jesus for what he could give them, instead of really just wanting him. I'm curious. How can we examine our motives? You know, the motives that hold us back from a genuine pursuit of Jesus.

00;04;11;28 - 00;04;12;13
Paul
Should I start?

00;04;12;16 - 00;04;14;12
Jeremiah
Yeah. Okay.

00;04;14;15 - 00;04;36;15
Paul
Well, I think it it's, it can be a little bit tricky, because I think when we look at you, we can't necessarily determine our motives by looking at the outside. It's all internal, right? So we've got to look inside of ourselves and really ask that why question why? Why am I doing what I'm doing as I follow Jesus?

00;04;36;17 - 00;04;55;00
Paul
You know, I think about like, why why do we attend church? But why do we go to church on Sunday morning? Is that because that's where our social network is? You know, our friends and family are there. Is there a do we go because we need our our kids need some good morals and teaching. And so that's why we go.

00;04;55;00 - 00;05;18;08
Paul
Or do we go because we actually want to participate in and worship and contribute and give and serve. So that we can worship our God and all those things that we're doing. So I think we just have to sometimes step back and ask ourselves, why do we do the things that we do?

00;05;18;11 - 00;05;45;12
Brenton
Yeah. I think that that is, a question that could easily be blown off because we we know the right answer, right? We know what we what our motives should be. And so I think it's it's really a matter of us being honest with, with ourselves. And even if that, you know, that wrong desire that that kind of, secondary desires there, I think we need to be honest and actually repent if we need to.

00;05;45;13 - 00;05;47;09
Brenton
And then it's good.

00;05;47;13 - 00;06;25;08
Paul
I do wonder if, you know, there's some there's people who have left the church and don't see the value of attending on Sunday morning. And, I do wonder if if they have lost maybe some of that perspective of why they come in the first place. Because if we're, if we're here for the Lord primarily, first and foremost, there's so many good reasons to be together with the rest of the believers, to be at church, to be encouraged by the Word of God, to worship together, to sing, serve.

00;06;25;10 - 00;06;33;05
Paul
All of those things are part of how we encourage one another in the Lord. And, we can't abandon that or just do that by ourself.

00;06;33;07 - 00;06;34;20
Brenton
Yeah.

00;06;34;23 - 00;06;59;05
Jeremiah
So you talked about the, gathering of the body. One one other way that we can internally look at is, is how are we reading our Bibles? Are we are we reading them? With the mindset of what do I get out of this? And or are we are we really sitting at the feet of Jesus and and, looking at what does the passage say?

00;06;59;05 - 00;07;23;16
Jeremiah
What does this teach me about, about God? Was this teach me about myself? And not just what can I get from it, but like, like, how does how does this how does God's word cause me to to to change or to to act in light of it? I live in Hebrews where it just talks about like God's Word is living and active.

00;07;23;16 - 00;07;45;27
Jeremiah
It's sharper than any double edged sword pierces to the division of soul. Like are we? Are we letting God's Word actually do that? Or are we just going at it surface level? And just what what do I what do I see from this? And so I think, not just in the corporate gathering and like, thinking of it, like, consumeristic.

00;07;46;05 - 00;08;01;18
Jeremiah
But rather like, am I an active participant, but also like, thinking about God's word and, like, how am I engaging with it? Is it about me or is it about, is it about is about, sitting at the feet of Jesus?

00;08;01;21 - 00;08;27;02
Brenton
Yeah. You guys bring up the Sunday morning gathering and I'm kind of, I don't know, I think, I think it's common for us to be pretty emotionally, led in, in our corporate worship. And even through the preaching, I think that so often we can come away from a message of be like, that was a really good message and do nothing with it.

00;08;27;05 - 00;08;50;24
Brenton
And it's not I mean, it, you know, it made it made me feel good for that week. That's great. But but we, you know, there's there's maybe no marked change in your life. There's no, really internal thought of, okay, this this actually is something that is going to change my life if I actually, if I actually, obey this.

00;08;50;24 - 00;09;21;01
Brenton
And so, yeah, I, I agree with you in that, Paul, you specifically brought up Exodus 33, where Moses says to God about the Promised Land if your presence will not go with me. Do not bring us up from here. And bringing this story up was actually really helpful for me and thinking through this message. How can we kind of better adopt this kind of attitude about our, our need for God himself?

00;09;21;02 - 00;09;40;13
Brenton
I mean, we look at Moses, who they've they've been on the on the edge of the promised Land for a long time. And, and God says, yeah, you can go, but I'm not going with you. And and he doesn't want to go because of that. So how can we really desire that, that relationship with God more?

00;09;40;15 - 00;10;10;21
Paul
I think about the relationship Moses had with God. You know, he was the representative for the nation. The Israelites were honestly afraid to approach God, but they wanted Moses to go with him. And so Moses had developed cultivated this relationship with God. That was personal. And so in, in some sense, you know, he was able to be bold enough to say, if your presence won't go with us, I don't want I don't want to go.

00;10;10;23 - 00;10;48;09
Paul
And so I think we've got to, pursue that type of cultivating of a relationship with the Lord. That is personal. That we're not living vicariously through other people. In our in our walk with God. So that's why I, I just want to encourage people. You know, it's great to to read devotionals. It's great to, listen to other people break down the word of God for you, but you're never going to have the same, joy and, richness that comes from just getting into the word yourself and learning how to interact with the Word of God.

00;10;48;10 - 00;10;59;00
Paul
He speaks to us through His word. And it's it's rich and develop, develops us in ways that are just, so special that way that develops that personal relationship.

00;10;59;03 - 00;11;09;02
Brenton
Yeah. So, your, your answer to that is kind of it's the daily, like, spiritual habits of getting to know God better. Like personally. Yeah. Yeah.

00;11;09;04 - 00;11;25;07
Paul
And I know there's plenty of people who have said, you know, I, I've tried that and it's dry. I'm not sure what to do. Well, look, let's do this in community then. And that's why I encourage you. And even at the end of my message, I was saying, you know, let's get into the word of God. Get to know Jesus better.

00;11;25;09 - 00;11;45;03
Paul
But it's even better if you do that in community. And we can learn from one another. Whether that's directly, instructed to us on how to do that or we just catch it as we watch other people, and learn from them on how they're building their relationship with the Lord. I've learned lots of things by watching other people do that.

00;11;45;06 - 00;11;47;17
Paul
And sometimes more is caught than taught.

00;11;47;19 - 00;11;49;27
Brenton
Yeah, for sure.

00;11;49;29 - 00;12;17;22
Jeremiah
Yeah, I I'd echo that. And like, when I see and like there are times where you'll go through dry spells, but then you see other brothers and sisters that, like, they're on you, you know, that they're not in a dry season and, you know, and you just see the joy of the Lord within. Within what? They're, they're, experiencing and what they're gone through.

00;12;17;24 - 00;12;41;20
Jeremiah
In, in their daily time with the Lord, whether that's through reading God's Word, whether that's through their prayer life, whether that's, doing time of silence and solitude, just like actually being quiet with the Lord. And, just seeing the fruit of that. And we even, I mean, Jesus in the passage here, what does he do right off the bat?

00;12;41;23 - 00;13;04;20
Jeremiah
He he he shows us a great example of. He he even got a time away to be alone with the Lord. That was how, how important it was for him. And he gives us that great example. Even in the midst of the busyness, just the fact that coming out of feeding of the 5000, we're we're we're constantly busy.

00;13;04;22 - 00;13;14;16
Jeremiah
But Jesus shows that for us that even in the midst of the busyness, the best thing that he needed in that moment was to be alone with the Lord.

00;13;14;19 - 00;13;40;15
Brenton
Yeah. It's a good point. Both of you, you guys spent some time on verse 29. 29 says this is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent. What does genuine belief look like? And I guess you, Paul, you had kind of compared it to an intellectual agreement. That being the the other side of that.

00;13;40;15 - 00;13;45;14
Brenton
So kind of explain the two. And how do they how do they differ?

00;13;45;17 - 00;14;07;26
Paul
Yeah. I won't repeat, you know, everything I said in the sermon, but I, we talked about it. And it's not just belief about God, but it's belief in relying on trusting in depending on what is true about who Jesus is and who he revealed himself to be. And that really ultimately results in action. I mean, we can go back to the book of James, but Faith without works is dead.

00;14;07;27 - 00;14;29;29
Paul
Now, to be clear. Jesus didn't want them to work for their salvation. I mean, he said they asked what they needed to do. And he's like, well, the work of God is believe. So that's that's how we're saved. But then how we live that out is obviously following him. When Jesus talked to the rich young ruler. He said one thing you lack sell everything you have and follow me.

00;14;29;29 - 00;14;58;13
Paul
And and there's action that takes place as we become followers of Jesus. So, Yeah, there's, there's the the believe in Jesus is. Who is he really said he is. I'm trusting in his death and resurrection for my salvation, for my sin, and for my future and eternal life that's going to be with him. But now I'm going to live that out in the things that he calls me to be obedient to do.

00;14;58;16 - 00;15;01;01
Paul


00;15;01;04 - 00;15;35;29
Jeremiah
Yeah. Hi. In my sermon, I, I talked about actually the picture of the disciples. How like they knew it was Jesus. But then they went beyond that. They, they, they trusted and they welcomed him into their, their boat. And, I love just the actually the end of that is they're worshiping Jesus. And and ultimately when we, when we think about, just this, knowledge and trusting, and like, following in line with that, like, what does it lead to?

00;15;35;29 - 00;16;03;25
Jeremiah
It leads to worship. And like, that's, that's ultimately when you see that heart in it, you know, that there's genuine belief within that. And something that we've been talking about within our worship arts, our worship tech music, all of these things. We've got three words that go along with it. It's to remember, rehearse and respond to the to the gospel.

00;16;03;25 - 00;16;25;29
Jeremiah
And so just remembering what he has done, who he is. Rehearsing that, telling those truths to ourselves. Each and every. And that's why it's so important to to meet on Sundays is that we are rehearsing these truths, but then it's responding, just the goodness of God and, and who Jesus is and what he has done for us.

00;16;26;01 - 00;16;54;25
Brenton
Yeah, I think that's really good. I, you know, I think even as Christians, we we do struggle with, with trusting Jesus all the time. Right. And so what what kind of separates, or what, what actions kind of separate the, the intellectual side of this versus the trusting God part?

00;16;54;28 - 00;17;24;10
Paul
Well, I think Jesus wants us, to acknowledge who he is. And as I was trying to make clear in my sermon, he's he's making very clear he's got incarnate. He's in control of all these things. He has the ability to do all of these amazing things that nobody else can do. Only God can do. And so the result of that is, you know, what Jeremiah had pointed out when the disciples got in the boat that they worshiped him as as Lord.

00;17;24;12 - 00;17;47;22
Paul
Yeah. As the son of God. And they surrendered to to his lordship. Just acknowledging that. So, so trusting in Christ is demonstrated by our surrender to him. Like he's he's Lord of all. What he says goes, I'm going to I'm going to follow him, I trust him, I believe he has what knows what's best. He's in control.

00;17;47;24 - 00;18;01;13
Paul
It's it's putting all those truths that we learn about God from the Bible, but then saying, okay, now my life is going to follow that. And I'm going to submit to whatever that is because of who he is.

00;18;01;15 - 00;18;24;12
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. I think the, the concept of Jesus being Lord is super important. And as we talk about here on this show and of this church a lot is, you know, the, the Spirit's role of sanctification in our life. And so this isn't going to look perfect. When we become a believer, we're going to struggle. We're going to, at times fight against it.

00;18;24;12 - 00;18;42;16
Brenton
But I think that as we look back, you know, the same thing. We've it's what we say about sanctification. We look back over a period of time. Is Jesus more of our Lord now? Are we are our actions showing that that we submit to to Jesus as our Lord more than we did years ago or whatever?

00;18;42;16 - 00;19;08;25
Jeremiah
Yeah. And I and I think it's also just a great reminder that the Christian life has ups and downs within it. We're not going to have that straight shot like, I've, I've submitted my life and it's now like I do that every with every decision. I around this table. Like we would all agree that like there are days that we struggle with that, which is why we need the reminder, which is why we need all of these things.

00;19;08;25 - 00;19;36;08
Jeremiah
We need we need God's word to to, just remind us that, we are sinful, fallen human beings. And we we need the grace of God. We we need that every day. The, the first beatitude has kept coming back to me. Be poor in spirit of just like I need to be reminded that I need God each and every day of my life for for every moment of my life.

00;19;36;08 - 00;20;04;24
Jeremiah
And so, it's just a great reminder that, like, there are ups and downs with it. But if you take a look and just like the past of your life and you're, you're seeing that that trajectory of I'm, I, my, my life is, looking more and more like Jesus. That that should give you just great, encouragement, great affirmation that, like, he has done that work in, in your life.

00;20;04;26 - 00;20;05;06
Jeremiah
Yeah.

00;20;05;06 - 00;20;31;08
Brenton
And then. Yeah, I appreciate all that. Kind of takes me back to my conversation with Nathan a little bit last week. We we talked about evangelism and just how our, the way we evangelize sometimes can, can push our own kind of desires for things we can get from Jesus out on to other people. So, you know, you need to trust Jesus because he'll take this, this thing away from you or he'll.

00;20;31;10 - 00;20;54;16
Brenton
And so, it's why I think the, the lordship piece of this is so important because it puts us in our rightful place and it puts Jesus in his rightful place. And so, yeah, super, super important. I appreciate you guys bringing that out. Verse 27 Jesus warns against working for food that perishes. What would you guys say?

00;20;54;16 - 00;21;11;12
Brenton
Or some perishable pursuit? That we often prioritize. So it's a lot of peace and and how can we realign our effort, efforts to focus on the eternal life. He offers.

00;21;11;15 - 00;21;44;21
Jeremiah
I, I think about, three TS you've got a number of these here. I got I think about three TS. Our time, our talent, our treasure. And oftentimes, those are the categories that, we pursue it for, for our own benefit. And oftentimes they're perishable. So, like, when we think about, our time, like, it's my time and like, I'm going to use it my way.

00;21;44;23 - 00;22;11;01
Jeremiah
And instead of, like, thinking about, like, oh, God, God has given. He's numbered our days in. He is he has given us, the, the a set amount of time and, like, how are we going to use that for, for the Lord? Yes. There needs to be rest. Yes. We need to work. Yes, we need to, as a as a dad, I need to spend time with, with my family.

00;22;11;04 - 00;22;34;15
Jeremiah
But, like, do I view that as my time, or do I view that as, like, the Lord has blessed me with this. And you go into your talents. How am I? Is it is it my talents, like, I've been, a musician? Brennan is a musician. Like, Are we are we using those for our glory, or are we using those for, for his.

00;22;34;20 - 00;22;57;13
Jeremiah
His glory? And then, like you think of your treasure. Is it is it is it my money? And you just think about our culture and just, the the, the commercial that that comes to mind is it's it's my money, and I need it now, like that. That's the thing that keeps we're inundated with.

00;22;57;13 - 00;23;22;03
Jeremiah
And so we oftentimes think of it as just my money. And those are all like God has given us those things. And so, like, if we pursue them as they're my money, my, my time, my talent, that's perishable. And those are the things that are never going to satisfy, never truly going to satisfy. You may think in the moment and maybe in the moment some of those things will satisfy.

00;23;22;03 - 00;23;36;17
Jeremiah
But like, that's what I think Jesus is pointing to with, with the the miracle partakers. They they were hungry again. And so they came looking again for for something that couldn't truly satisfy that momentary miracle.

00;23;36;20 - 00;23;37;07
Brenton
Yeah.

00;23;37;10 - 00;23;40;12
Jeremiah
JG Wentworth 877 cash. Now that is.

00;23;40;12 - 00;23;43;20
Brenton
Ridiculous. We both remember that jingle.

00;23;43;23 - 00;23;44;16
Paul
That's funny.

00;23;44;18 - 00;23;46;00
Brenton
All right, move on Paul.

00;23;46;02 - 00;24;13;27
Paul
Well, actually I was going to jump in on that a little bit. When we think about our, there's things that we have to go after, right? Like, so we we have to make money, to survive in our world. We gotta pay the rent and buy groceries and all of that stuff is going to perish. But I think when we consider, like, how do we, realign our efforts to focus on what's eternal, I think it's considering how we steward those things.

00;24;13;29 - 00;24;33;14
Paul
So God has called us to be stewards of all that we have. And yeah, we're going to be pursuing things that are temporary. I like to remodel my house and, you know, but what's my purpose in doing that is that and we do we we host our community group out of our home. You know, there's different ministry purposes that we have in those things.

00;24;33;14 - 00;25;03;20
Paul
We like to host people. I want to be generous with, with the different things that God's given me. And so, but those are for eternal purposes, you know, to try to bring people closer to the Lord or, you know, direct in different ways to bless others. Is there an eternal, and external, aspect to how I steward what God has given me that's temporary, or is is just personal consumption that I'm looking at as, as I manage my, my stuff.

00;25;03;22 - 00;25;32;10
Brenton
That's a really good way to think about it. How how are we, using the temporary things of this life for eternal reasons? I think that's that's helpful. All right. So, Paul, you mentioned a few different types of Christianity that we see in our culture today. You you had said there's cultural Christianity, there's political, Christianity. Can you kind of quickly remind us of what you what you meant by those?

00;25;32;13 - 00;25;35;23
Paul
It was actually the, the quote by Stephen Hawking.

00;25;35;25 - 00;25;36;03
Brenton
Yeah.

00;25;36;05 - 00;26;01;01
Paul
So he mentioned there was cultural Christianity, political Christianity, believing Christianity. And any combination of the three is what he said. And so, you know, people co-opt Christianity for their different purposes sometimes. I obviously, we've seen that example in politics for many years, where people will use Christianity for their own purposes. They're just to get votes or whatever they want to do.

00;26;01;03 - 00;26;21;11
Paul
But that's that's not what Jesus ever calls anybody to be a part of. He's not calling us to be political Christians. Now, that doesn't mean that politics doesn't matter. That doesn't we don't live out our faith within our politics. But, we're not called to be politic Christians. We're called to follow Christ. He's Lord, as we talked about.

00;26;21;11 - 00;26;37;28
Paul
So, you know, that's that's really where we're believing Christians is what we want to be. That's what Jesus is talking about. Believe in me, follow me. And and then we that that's what makes a Christian. Yeah.

00;26;38;00 - 00;26;57;28
Jeremiah
I love what you said, Paul. What what kind of simple way that like, in my mind, I, I've been thinking about it is just like, who who's actually at the center of this? Is it, is it is it Jesus, or is it me? And so, like, I, I want to just make sure that Jesus is at the center of that.

00;26;57;28 - 00;27;26;29
Jeremiah
He's he's he's the king. I'm not the king. A lot of times it's it's about me building my own kingdom. And like, when we think of culture, Christian unity, political Christianity, what's what's the point of it is to build our kingdom? Whereas like when we're talking about, when we're talking about, being, being a, a true Christian, it's, it's about building his kingdom.

00;27;27;01 - 00;27;34;28
Jeremiah
Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Amen. And so who's at the center of it? Is it me or is it Jesus?

00;27;35;00 - 00;27;35;15
Paul
Yeah.

00;27;35;17 - 00;28;08;12
Brenton
Yeah. And it's it's so much bigger than than we want to make it sometimes, you know, if we're living in that kind of cultural or or political bubble of how we, how we treat our relationship with Christ, it's it's so much bigger than that. And it's so much better than that. I mean, we see the example of the crowd in, in these stories who want to make Christ King for their own purposes, but that that last a very short time, that that affects very few people in a, in a specific time.

00;28;08;12 - 00;28;30;27
Brenton
And I think we look at, you know, what Jesus is actually saying, and he's setting up this far better kingdom in the future, that we get to experience now and, and forever. And so, yeah, because it's it's a good way to put that I appreciate it. All right. Well, I think we will wrap it up there. I, I'm grateful for your guys's work again.

00;28;31;04 - 00;28;44;16
Brenton
And, if you have any, if you have any questions, about John six, we're going to be in John six for a couple more weeks. Feel free to send them in, ask it further. Podcast.com and thanks, guys. We'll talk to you next week.