00;00;14;21 - 00;00;41;12
Chris 
That's why we've got to know God's Word and why theology really, truly does matter. Why I love to to preach God's Word and why I try to do it so passionately. Because it's not just facts or things that that don't really matter to the day to day program of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

00;00;41;15 - 00;00;48;27
Brenton
Welcome back to further I am Britain trim. We have Chris in the studio again. How's it going?

00;00;49;00 - 00;00;51;07
Chris 
It's going. Yeah, it's been a while.

00;00;51;10 - 00;00;55;27
Brenton
So, yeah, you just told me it was the week before Christmas that you were in here, so.

00;00;55;29 - 00;00;59;09
Chris 
Yeah, it's, had a few things going on, so. Yes.

00;00;59;11 - 00;01;25;10
Brenton
You have. Yep. Yeah. I wanted to quickly just apologize for last week's, You know, there's a lot going on. And so we did not get to, do the one last week, but hopefully we'll be able to do a little review today and, cover both of them. So, I did want to start out by just kind of asking you, you know, we're we're a couple weeks out from the All in, sermon series starting.

00;01;25;12 - 00;01;32;28
Brenton
I know you've been doing a lot of work on that, and so, you know what? What's coming up in a couple of weeks?

00;01;33;01 - 00;02;03;20
Chris 
Yeah, it's hard to believe. We've been talking about this for quite a while. And so now finally upon us. So we're going to have some, preview nights here coming up in a couple of weeks where we're going to, at each of our campuses, 16, 17th and 18th. One, at each campus on, those different dates, we will, just kind of lay out, a little bit more of the vision and some details about exactly what we're going to be doing.

00;02;03;22 - 00;02;23;08
Chris 
Are hoping, that the Lord is going to enable us to do. And then, couple weeks after that, we'll kick off, about a seven week sermon series where we'll really be diving into what does it mean to to fulfill the Great commandment? We spend a lot of time talking about what it means to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.

00;02;23;08 - 00;03;07;20
Chris 
And then out of the overflow of that, loving our neighbors as ourselves. And, I think it's going to be, kind of a unique series for us, here. And, I've been working on this for, for quite a while, and, I think, there's just going to be some, some things that are going to be deeply, hoping, praying that'll be deeply impacting, for us in, in, a fresh and unique way as, we really grapple with like this, this is, bottom line, it's all about, you know, and Jesus says, in the, in Luke, I believe it is that, all the law and the

00;03;07;20 - 00;03;27;16
Chris 
prophets hang on. The great commandment. So if you if we get this right, we get everything right. And, that also means if we don't get this right, that the rest of it, as Paul says, the first Corinthians 13, without love, we can have everything else in the world going for us. And, and, it really amounts to nothing.

00;03;27;16 - 00;03;52;29
Chris 
So, I think it's a bit challenging. I think we're going to have to be willing to open up our hearts to what the Holy Spirit wants to do in us. And I really believe if we do that, that it's going to be very transformative, for us and, this, season in our church, which is going to go on for a while and I just through this seven weeks, but for the next two years, it's just going to be, amazing.

00;03;52;29 - 00;04;04;22
Chris 
I think Lord is going to blow us away by what he does. So looking forward to it. And, again, it'll be here before you know it. So I hope everybody's going to dive in. And, you know, participate.

00;04;04;24 - 00;04;27;29
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be good. It's going to be challenging. You know, I think that Mark 12 passage is one we're likely all familiar with, but I think it's going to be good to take a kind of deeper dive into what it means and what, what our responsibility is and where we're kind of falling short and how we can, how we can continue to grow in that.

00;04;27;29 - 00;04;58;06
Brenton
And so, yeah, I'm excited. Okay. So, I'm going to start, kind of an aside from your from your sermon, but you briefly brought up communion, and I couldn't help, but there's a question about it. So, you did make an allusion to, transubstantiation. Although you didn't say it. You know, the doctrine is, is held by the Roman Catholic Church.

00;04;58;06 - 00;05;41;01
Brenton
And for anyone who isn't, familiar with it, essentially, transubstantiation teaches that when the Eucharist or communion in our context is is performed, the priest consecrated the bread and the wine into the literal body and blood of Christ. John six is one major proof that they would use to back this up. And so, you know, here at Harmony, we practice communion in, in a more symbolic way, where we, we see that the elements, are a representation of, of, you know, Christ's body and blood.

00;05;41;03 - 00;05;50;03
Brenton
I'm curious why why do we land more on the symbolic view? And how would we defend that biblically?

00;05;50;06 - 00;06;18;02
Chris 
Sure. Well, I think the first thing to be said here, which I did mention on Sunday, is that this passage in John six is not about communion. I think communion actually points us to this passage, not the other way around. That this John six passage is an explanation of, you know, the heart of like what what communities is representing and your.

00;06;18;02 - 00;06;26;12
Brenton
Reasoning for that is that, they wouldn't have had any idea. Well, I mean, I mean, obviously communion wasn't instituted at that point, right?

00;06;26;12 - 00;06;49;14
Chris 
I mean, the context in the context. So, and yet I remember, like John's writing this in 90 A.D., so the believers that he's writing to are going to see an allusion to, to the Lord's Table in the passage. But but Jesus is not talking to believers, right? I mean, he's talking to, the relig, the Jewish religious leaders.

00;06;49;16 - 00;07;21;18
Chris 
Okay. And so it's just, you know, and, we can even tell they're like, Jesus is is trying to get them to think about his his death. He's pointing to his death. And they and we're going to see this more this this week. They just lay, lay, lose it even as his followers lose it because they're like, taking it too literally, like taking it to literally, in terms of literally drinking his, his blood and his flesh.

00;07;21;18 - 00;07;49;00
Chris 
But, it's very clearly in the context that he's, he's talking about his death. And then he's, he's saying that belief in my death in the crosses is that's how someone receives eternal life. So it's about salvation, not about communion and communion. It so that's one reason why we we would even say that communion, you know, the Catholic view is, is communion is salvific, right.

00;07;49;03 - 00;08;03;09
Chris 
And like fruit for someone not to take communion since since it literally is the, the, the blood of Jesus in the, the flesh of Jesus in his body, the like for you to not to take communion as means you're rejecting Christ.

00;08;03;11 - 00;08;18;13
Brenton
Which correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, with with the idea of it becoming, his actual body and blood, it's it's all it's it's representative of or it is an actual, it's another atonement, right?

00;08;18;15 - 00;08;40;05
Chris 
I believe so. Okay. And I, I do think that, if you were to ask Catholics to explain this to you, I think they'd have a hard time explaining it to you. Yeah, most of them would. So I, I have to be careful. I'm not exactly even sure what the position is. And I think that Catholics have a hard time explaining that.

00;08;40;08 - 00;09;07;11
Chris 
And I'm not even necessarily talking just about Catholic, you know, members of the Catholic Church, but even priests, and I think you may even get a variety of different answers, different depending on who you talk to. But all that being said, I, I also think that, it's, you know, Jesus is clearly again, he he is not instituting communion.

00;09;07;11 - 00;09;27;11
Chris 
He does that we see at the very end of the synoptic Gospels. See, we actually don't see it in the Gospel of John. Interesting. There's there's no institution of the Lord's Supper in, in, in John. We see it in all three of the Synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke. And it's always very right at the end, right before, like he's told.

00;09;27;11 - 00;10;04;25
Chris 
And it's, it's only with his, as far as we can tell, the 12. And so it's, it's only after he's also told them over and over again, I'm going to Jerusalem, I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to be arrested, tried and crucified. And so to think that, like, there's this earlier to a group of Jewish religious leaders and by extension, a whole crowd of people like it just I just don't think, I think we're in people are that they're reading in to it from, our modern, our modern times.

00;10;04;28 - 00;10;28;21
Chris 
So with that being said, maybe helpful just even to, to help to answer your, your original question here, there's basically four different views. There's the transubstantiation view. And then Luther came along and he obviously didn't like hardly anything that the Catholic Church was teaching at the time. And so, and rightfully so, and on many issues, and this being one of them.

00;10;28;21 - 00;10;36;00
Chris 
So he, he came up with a kind substantiation view just a little bit in the word transubstantiation. You're transforming the substance.

00;10;36;02 - 00;10;36;14
Brenton
Yeah.

00;10;36;16 - 00;11;02;16
Chris 
So, you know, the, the substance of the, the bread and the wine is transformed. So this is kind substantiation. And so con is, is with and so, his view is Jesus is present in, with and under the bread. So saying it was like a sponge, like water is, you know, in with and under the sponge. But it's not the sponge.

00;11;02;16 - 00;11;27;25
Chris 
It's not the sponge. Yeah. So that's kind of the that's the Lutheran view. Then there was a guy who was a contemporary of Lutheran, named, Ulric Zwingli. So you can get that name. You can say that. And it's interesting you read the history like Zwingli and, Luther got in a big old knock down drag out about this and started saying nasty things about each other.

00;11;27;28 - 00;11;28;25
Chris 
It's not.

00;11;28;28 - 00;11;29;27
Brenton
All together for and for.

00;11;29;27 - 00;12;03;08
Chris 
Luther, and you know, I think Luther actually said I would rather drink the blood with the Catholics than wine with Zwingli. And so and then they kissed and made up and, and, and, you know, and you write about Luther like obviously, huge, huge impact in, on the, on us, you know, as, as, Protestants and in the, you know, the reformed tradition and all that.

00;12;03;11 - 00;12;28;28
Chris 
But he he was a hothead, and he said a lot he said a lot of things that I'm sure he regretted. And, especially regrets now. But, but, anyways, Zwingli his view is called the memorial view. And it's this basically the simply simple symbolic view, that the, the elements, and represent, the, they're symbols.

00;12;28;28 - 00;12;55;09
Chris 
That's, that's pretty much all that they are. And then there's another guy who was a contemporary you've probably heard of as well, John Calvin. And Calvin said that he didn't think that Zwingli went too far. And so he his view is called the spiritual presence view, where Jesus is not, you know, it's not physically present in the elements, but he's spiritually present with his people as they partake in communion.

00;12;55;11 - 00;13;28;15
Chris 
And, in my opinion, believers can hold, the kind substantiation, the memorial, on the spiritual presence view, I think that, I would have issues specifically with Luther's view. I think that that's kind of problematic. There's some problems with that view, I should say. And I would, I think Calvin would appear to me to be the one who was closest to the actual.

00;13;28;18 - 00;13;29;04
Brenton


00;13;29;04 - 00;13;46;07
Chris 
View that we should we should take that. Yes. The elements are symbols. I think Jesus is holding up to his disciples, the the bread and the cup. And he says, you know, this is I don't I don't think he was, you know, his body was literally there. And then these elements, I think you just view that that's symbolic.

00;13;46;15 - 00;14;10;24
Chris 
But Jesus is also, you know, he's present with his people. Yeah. And it is, is a way that we can experience his grace. Not in a, salvific way or anything, but but it's the grace that comes to us through his salvation, which is not just a one time, you know, benefit that we get. But but it's a day in and day out.

00;14;10;24 - 00;14;38;10
Chris 
It's it's, you know, Paul talks about Christ in you, the hope of glory. And, we see Jesus say in John 18, this is in the context of, the, church restoration process, like where 2 or 3 other. My name there I am where with him. And so that's the context is is true restoration. But I think the principle is, is like where, where believers are gathered and we're in the gathering worship service and where we're partaking that he's there, present with a spiritually.

00;14;38;13 - 00;15;09;26
Brenton
Yeah. I, I think I saw a little bit of what Calvin wrote on this, and he was saying, you know, the the Catholic view or the Lutheran view brings Jesus down to us, right? He's we all affirm that Jesus is, you know, physically present in, with, with God now. But, Calvin's view really, brings us up to him through the spirit, and it brings us into his president presence by the Holy Spirit.

00;15;09;28 - 00;15;21;09
Brenton
Right. And so instead of, you know, Jesus coming down bodily as the Catholic Church would say, that we are then brought up, you know, spiritually into into his presence.

00;15;21;12 - 00;15;41;26
Chris 
Well, if I'm correct, you know, when when a Catholic is nearing death, the priests will try to come and administer the, the Lord's Supper to them before they pass away. And, there's like it's really important, if at all possible, that that can.

00;15;41;28 - 00;16;07;09
Brenton
Well, and I think that's the basis for like a Protestants problem with, with transubstantiation is, is not really the, the, the medium with which it's performed, but it's that it's salvific. Right. We see nothing, in Scripture where communion is, is required for salvation or that we need, another sacrifice by Christ. Right? It was it was once for all.

00;16;07;11 - 00;16;28;08
Chris 
Brian. Right. And that's where you go back to the John six passage and making it subject fit, salvific and interpreting that last portion that we looked at there in that literal way. It kind of undermines the whole point that Jesus is trying to make, about belief.

00;16;28;10 - 00;16;32;10
Brenton
Yeah. Okay, good. Well, that aside, took a little bit of time.

00;16;32;10 - 00;16;35;21
Chris 
By the way, I'm not surprised you brought this question up, so.

00;16;35;23 - 00;17;00;26
Brenton
I'm surprised you, you went with it, but it's good. No. It's good. Okay. So, big topic of your sermon this week was God's sovereignty and salvation. And we could go a million different ways here. And we have on other episodes, but verse 44, says no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

00;17;00;28 - 00;17;11;21
Brenton
How do you people typically experience, you know, this drawing in their life? Are there signs that someone is being drawn to Christ?

00;17;11;23 - 00;17;39;28
Chris 
Well, I think I would begin by saying, I think there are many different ways that it happens. I think that it's not always the same for every person. For some people, it simply could be they grew up or had the privilege being born in a strong, believing family. And they were in in a good Bible preaching church, right from the get go.

00;17;39;28 - 00;18;07;11
Chris 
Early on in life, the parents were speaking the gospel into them, and the Lord just uses that faithful presence of the yeah, parents in the church. I think that, it happens for some people, quite a few people, they go to, to camp, summer camp and have that experience where they hear the gospel or maybe not for the first time, but in a, in a way that the Lord just speaks to them in that moment.

00;18;07;13 - 00;18;44;02
Chris 
There are circumstance, definitely circumstances that, the Lord uses, and, difficult circumstances, tragedies, sometimes addictions, things like a divorce, and all that being said, though, ultimately, the way that the Lord does it is through the proclamation of the gospel in some, in some form, like the and Paul talks about this in Romans chapter ten is like, they, they they will whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

00;18;44;02 - 00;19;09;28
Chris 
Well, how can they be saved unless someone preaches to them? And how can we preach unless they are sent? Blessed are the feet of those who are before the feet of those who who preach the good news. And so I think while there are just a variety of different ways that happens, and I would even say why, I think it's like, just as my experience tells me in all these years of just hearing different testimonies like it just happens in a lot of different ways.

00;19;09;28 - 00;19;36;10
Chris 
But what's what's central to it all is the proclaimed word about about Jesus, about about Christ. And that doesn't necessarily mean from a pulpit. It could be from, you know, neighbor, a parent in a small group or, you know, nowadays technology and all this kind of stuff. But the Lord, draws us to himself. The father draws us to the son through the spirit.

00;19;36;13 - 00;20;04;25
Chris 
You should put it that way. And, I think evidence of it is, you know, things like, conviction of sin, like, a recognition of a need for a savior. I you you hear me? Use this on a regular basis, but I just think it's such a great way of bringing it out. Second Corinthians four.

00;20;04;28 - 00;20;22;11
Chris 
Where we we have we are given the ability by the Holy Spirit to see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. And what Paul means by that is, is that we see Jesus and, and and we are able to recognize all of a sudden that, oh, he is he's God. And he died for me and rose again for me.

00;20;22;11 - 00;20;50;18
Chris 
And like, he's he's beautiful and glorious and like and I think like the tide in here is, is that that's really what it means to be a Christian. And I think, one of, what we see for so many people who, who maybe think that they're Christians but probably aren't, is that Jesus is just not, like, beautiful to them, glorious to them.

00;20;50;20 - 00;21;18;28
Chris 
We got to be careful. I mean, when I say beautiful these days, it's like we're thinking, like, physically attractive. That's not. That's not what I mean. Like like, oh my goodness. Like, he is great. He is, awesome. And if we only have a whole come kind of. Jesus is my friend, I admire him. Then we're not that the spirit draws us.

00;21;19;04 - 00;21;48;00
Chris 
We can tell we're being drove like, oh, okay. Like he is. He deserves my all. He deserves to be worshiped. And and so I think the again, there's the conviction of sin, the need for a savior. He's my only hope. And then at the end of the day, can I see his glory? You know, Paul says, God, this this age has blinded the mind of unbelievers so they don't see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

00;21;48;03 - 00;22;14;02
Chris 
So if you don't see the glory of God in Jesus, then you're you're an unbeliever. And this, this devil is blinding you. And Paul says, it's only by the spirit are the scales removed from our eyes. So that we can actually we can actually see it, which is, you know, so many things that tie in here that's that's spiritual, like those who are, who are, unbelievers are spiritually blind.

00;22;14;08 - 00;22;27;00
Chris 
What can a blind person see? Nothing. How can a blind person see something on their own? They never will until a miracle takes place and they're given sight, right?

00;22;27;03 - 00;22;59;29
Brenton
Yeah. I think we all could probably point to a a story of someone that was, you know, actively, you know, where we might have written them off. Right? So they're, you know, never going to come to Jesus, but then we see this transformation happen. And, and it's obvious that, you know, the, that they're being drawn right, that they're being, they've been regenerated and now they're they're being drawn to to Jesus.

00;22;59;29 - 00;23;22;22
Brenton
But you know that you're right. I think that happens in a lot of different ways. I think it can be far less dramatic to, you know, growing up in a, you know, in a home that's preaching the gospel to you all the time is still like without the father drawing you, you could still reject that. Right? But but yet in so many cases, it's just it's just kind of this natural.

00;23;22;24 - 00;23;24;09
Brenton
Right. Switch. Do it.

00;23;24;09 - 00;23;46;04
Chris 
Well in this, maybe we'll tie in into something and we'll get to a little bit later. And you can transition out of this and into that or into something else whenever you want. But the word drawn is probably not the best translation, because when we think of being drawn like, oh, I'm, I'm drawn to that thing or that person, but we may not actually go.

00;23;46;07 - 00;23;48;19
Brenton
Like, you mean like attracted or something.

00;23;48;23 - 00;24;12;25
Chris 
Yeah, right. Or and, and and I don't even necessarily mean that in terms of a, like a romantic relationship, like you could be just drawn to. I'm just drawn to that person because of their personality or whatever. We've got a lot in common. But but you use that word, it doesn't mean that that relationship actually takes place, actually comes into to being the word drawn here literally means to be dragged or hauled.

00;24;12;25 - 00;24;44;11
Chris 
So. So it means like the father draws like you're you're coming because it's, every other instance where that word in the, the New Testament is used. It is always there's resistance in what is being drawn and it's overcome. So, because we have this idea that we can resist God's grace, like he can he can draw us or choose us, and we can we we can choose not to come.

00;24;44;11 - 00;24;45;18
Chris 
Right.

00;24;45;21 - 00;25;10;05
Brenton
Yeah. Well, that'd be kind of the Arminian view, right? That that he, he draws everyone in the same way, but some choose to come. Right. So but I think, I think it's so important to remember our anthropology here. We remember that we, all of us before Christ, were by nature children of wrath. And I think we need to take that seriously and understand that that's not something that we were going to overcome on our own.

00;25;10;07 - 00;25;15;26
Brenton
That, it had to take a supernatural drawing or dragging and race.

00;25;15;28 - 00;25;35;23
Chris 
Right. Well verse 63 we'll get to this week. It is spirit who gives life. The flesh is no help at all. The words of the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. And so there's that word I was talking about. How he draws you, draws through the word. There's a spirit in life, but the flesh is no, I mean, Jesus couldn't be more frank about it.

00;25;35;23 - 00;26;06;04
Chris 
And I personally, I think clear about it is like in our ourselves, without the, the spirit, the, coming and, giving us life. We don't we can't we don't and we don't because we can't or it it's it's we're, unable to do so and again, verse 65, this is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the father, given to him by the father.

00;26;06;07 - 00;26;25;19
Chris 
And so I know there's debate about on this topic and, and there are other passages that can be like, okay, we might like, have like, exactly what, what is it saying there? But Jesus seems to be pretty clear and repeatedly in this passage.

00;26;25;21 - 00;26;50;06
Brenton
Yeah. Well, kind of run with that. You said, that it's very possible to spend your whole life in, in the church without actually having a personal relationship with Jesus. And you also were clear that, you know, if we don't have a relationship with, with him, then we need to question if we're actually Christians or not.

00;26;50;09 - 00;27;10;06
Brenton
Can you kind of expand on that a little bit? Like what it what it actually means to have a personal relationship with Jesus. And then also, you know, is it possible to have a relationship with him, but and think we or to think we have a relationship with him when we actually don't?

00;27;10;08 - 00;27;39;11
Chris 
I'll answer the second part first or the the latter part there. There are numerous passages in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, that, I think reveal it's it's possible to think believe you're a Christian and not to be to at the forefront. For me it would be, Matthew seven where Jesus says, you know, many of that.

00;27;39;11 - 00;28;03;09
Chris 
They will say to me, Lord, didn't we do this in your name? And you know, all of these great things for you? And, Jesus says, away from me, you, you workers of iniquity, I, I never knew you, so it's possible. Again, Jesus says to think that you you're in and you're not like you know him and you don't.

00;28;03;11 - 00;28;30;29
Chris 
Then there, second Corinthians 13 five, where Paul's talking to believers are professing believers. The church, the church of Corinth, he says, you know, examine yourselves to see if you're in the faith, test yourself. Don't you know that Christ Jesus is in you unless you fail to meet the test? And this is a this is shocking verse to a lot of people, but there's no way around it.

00;28;31;02 - 00;28;51;15
Chris 
It's like it's there is there's a test. And if you read Second Corinthians, the entire letter, you can see that there are a number of different tests that Paul gives to the Corinthians. I say, hey, this is evidence, your belief. This is evidence. Surely this is an evidence. Sure, believer, you need to ask yourself these questions.

00;28;51;15 - 00;29;18;13
Chris 
And if your answer to these things are no, then you, Christ may not be in you. You may think to your. Then of course you go to Hebrews and there's like numerous passages in there. Walk us through it. So, and this goes back to the it's tied into the can you lose your salvation question right. And, our position here at Harmony, my position is in.

00;29;18;13 - 00;29;20;01
Brenton
Jesus in John six.

00;29;20;04 - 00;29;45;04
Chris 
Yeah. Is you can't lose your salvation, which means that, it if if it people walk away from the faith or they, as Paul says, fail to meet the test, that's because they were never truly believers in the first place. And that it is possible to walk in aisle to pray a prayer, call yourself a Christian, to think that you're a Christian and not to not to be.

00;29;45;11 - 00;30;03;10
Chris 
Be one. And so if someone walks away from the faith, it's not because they lost their salvation. It's because they they never truly were a believer in the in the first place, even though they may have given outward evidence that they were.

00;30;03;12 - 00;30;07;15
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. So what.

00;30;07;17 - 00;30;10;14
Chris 
I didn't answer that. I answered the first question. What was the first part again?

00;30;10;18 - 00;30;15;25
Brenton
Like, what does it actually mean to have a personal relationship? Yeah. Like what does that daily look like?

00;30;15;28 - 00;30;20;11
Chris 
Yeah.

00;30;20;14 - 00;30;59;22
Chris 
I, I think it if we talk about it in terms of just a relationship, with another human being, and there's communication, right? There's, sharing. There's spending time with each other. And, and so there, there's a lot of those different elements. And, and of course, when you add in that fact that Jesus is Lord is Savior.

00;30;59;22 - 00;31;23;24
Chris 
So that means like having a relationship with him of of saving faith means like there's obedience that's going to come into play there. In the the New Testament has a whole lot to say about that. Jesus had a whole lot to say about that. If you love me, you'll keep my commandments. Okay. So, in the the best personal relationships or relationships of love.

00;31;23;26 - 00;31;41;02
Chris 
Right. And so Jesus is one of the way, you know, you love me if you, you obey me. So they have a personal relationship with Jesus means to listen to him, to to follow him, to obey him. Now we don't do that perfectly. And so that's where the other element it is, like when we sin, we confess and we repent.

00;31;41;02 - 00;32;14;16
Chris 
We experience his grace and forgiveness and and all of those kind of things. And so like, there's just I think that for so many people like Jesus's is an idea, a figure. But if you, you ask him, like, do you, do you really know know him and do you experience him knowing you? That's where it falls apart a lot, I think so, okay.

00;32;14;22 - 00;32;36;11
Chris 
Yeah. Can I add one more thing? It's like it's. I think a lot of people have kind of a transactional relationship with Jesus where you do this for me, and I'll do that for you. For you. Right. And and when Jesus doesn't do what you want him to do, then he doesn't love you anymore. Or, you know, like I'm throwing in the towel because I'm not getting what I want.

00;32;36;11 - 00;32;55;25
Chris 
That's, you know, if you if you take the parallel to marriage, a marriage that is simply a business, like a transactional relationship is going to end, eventually. Like you just do this for me. You just do that for me. I hold up my end of the bargain. You hold up end of the bargain. There's no love there.

00;32;55;26 - 00;33;03;20
Chris 
It's just like, maybe you call it a relationship, but it's not a. Yeah, it's not very personal, so to speak.

00;33;03;20 - 00;33;29;04
Brenton
So no, I think that that, you know, the, the personal relationship verbiage has been used for a long time and it's been thrown around a lot. Yeah. And maybe we've kind of over spiritualize that a little bit and just assume that that comes with the profession of faith and, and maybe not examined what that relationship looks like. And so we're kind of bringing that into our human relationship form.

00;33;29;04 - 00;33;30;21
Brenton
I think it does make sense of it.

00;33;30;24 - 00;33;55;03
Chris 
Here's maybe a somewhat of a parallel. It's it's like the born again Christian, language. And personal relationship. Yeah. It can it's been, misused. And so people like, I personally I trusted him as my savior. I'm going to heaven. Well, that's not that's a transactional relationship. Not a personal relationship. So.

00;33;55;05 - 00;34;16;27
Brenton
Okay, one of your application points from, from last week was to continually feed on Jesus. And I'm hoping you can kind of remind us what you meant by that and then give us some practical examples of how to do that.

00;34;16;29 - 00;34;44;01
Chris 
Well, he says in John six, whoever believes in me will will never hunger and will never thirst. And I again, I think we got to be careful that we don't get into like, okay, I believe one time in Jesus and then I'm never, like, hungry or thirsty. Like he satisfies me and I'm always going to be satisfied.

00;34;44;03 - 00;35;10;23
Chris 
That's that's not an accurate way, in my opinion, of how to think about it. You know, like Jesus talks about in the, sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be satisfied so that hunger and thirst is like, it's not like a one time. It's like I'm continuing hunger and thirst and and I've got this desire.

00;35;10;25 - 00;35;41;22
Chris 
So I'm continually pursuing him because I know he's the only one who's going to actually feed me something that's going to provide what I'm truly, truly, looking for. Yeah. And so, I think one of the things that our passage teaches us is that Jesus is continually feeding his people and again, that that language of feeds and feeds and feeds, it's all present tense, which is like it's a, it's a continuous in the here and the now.

00;35;41;22 - 00;36;13;28
Chris 
And, and so it's available to, to us and, and so how does he feed us again? It's through his word is where it starts. So, you know, the preaching of the word, he feeds us through his people, speaking the truth into us. That's why we have a community group in ministry. And, encourage people to be a part of than that or disciple ship groups, you know, or biblical counseling.

00;36;14;01 - 00;36;41;04
Chris 
And, he feeds us through, like, again, the, the table, or supper. But I could just say this that really like, like, like personally, I have a habit and doesn't happen every day for me. But one of the biggest blessings that the Lord has, been gracious to, to do for me is many, many years ago now.

00;36;41;06 - 00;37;02;05
Chris 
Just to, like, be give the Lord the first fruits of of of my day. Now I have the the you know the advantage of I'm a morning person, so this is easy to do. It's easier for me than for, for other people. But it doesn't have to like, this isn't about like you have to do it first thing in the morning or anything like that.

00;37;02;08 - 00;37;31;13
Chris 
But the best part of my day, always, almost always is like that time where I'm just spending in the word and, reading, meditating, praying, and I just like it. Can take some this. It's a habit. Like, it takes time and that you have to fight for it. It's not always easy. It's not like, you know, I wake up every morning.

00;37;31;13 - 00;37;55;26
Chris 
Oh, you know, like, so happy and Jesus, you know, and. Oh, I get this stuff. But I don't know that I've hardly ever had a time in my walk with the Lord where I walked away from spending time in, in the scriptures that I've walked away, going, yeah, wish I hadn't done that. And it's just like it's filling.

00;37;55;26 - 00;38;17;08
Chris 
It's it's it doesn't mean that it's always, you know, the greatest, the most like I you know why this is just, like, rocked my world changed everything. But is there is that feed that satisfaction. It hits a spot that nothing else in in life does. Yeah.

00;38;17;11 - 00;38;28;01
Brenton
Well, it's it's consistency to I mean I mean I think there's probably another parallel to, to food here. Right, right. We need we need consistent food and we.

00;38;28;04 - 00;38;28;27
Chris 
Yeah.

00;38;29;00 - 00;38;29;29
Brenton
Well for us.

00;38;30;03 - 00;38;50;23
Chris 
And, and I think this, you know, you, you ever get into the habit where you, you, you get on a kick about eating something that you really, really like. So, so, yeah, you know, like, okay, so here there will be some people can resonate with like chick fil A's just go to town, right? Like we went to chick.

00;38;50;23 - 00;39;09;21
Chris 
I don't know how many times we went to chick fil A in the first, you know, the first week my daughter went for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The first day it was open. So, and my son was saying, hey, we need to go to today because I've gone every day for a week. And I said, we didn't go every day for a week because they're not open on Sunday.

00;39;09;21 - 00;39;44;14
Chris 
But he he forgot about that. But you know, it's great. Okay. I love chick fil A or whatever. But but at some point you're like okay okay. It it it's like I need I'm not going to get it tomorrow because I think I've had enough for now. And you go back and all that kind stuff and I just use that illustration like for me, I don't think I have ever got to the place where it's like, hey, you know, I just got enough of this.

00;39;44;17 - 00;40;03;17
Chris 
And it just again, this doesn't mean like, I'm in it every day and it doesn't mean that every day. It's not like, oh, it's kind of dry or anything like that, but I just, I've never had that experience where, you know, it it it really is like a no, I don't it's like I think I'm over this.

00;40;03;17 - 00;40;31;18
Chris 
I think I've got, I've had enough of this. And I think that the, the number one thing that, will transform our unchanged our lives is developing in the long haul. This is not necessarily a quick fix thing and a certain measure, but a long time consistent. I'm going to make this something that I prioritize in my life.

00;40;31;20 - 00;40;41;21
Chris 
There's nothing that has made a bigger difference in my life and has led me to the place that I am today than that, that spiritual happened. So.

00;40;41;23 - 00;40;51;26
Brenton
Well, good. I appreciate that it's a good place to end. Read your Bibles, everybody. All right, well, good to have you back.

00;40;51;29 - 00;40;52;16
Chris 
Good to be back.

00;40;52;16 - 00;41;08;03
Brenton
We are one more week in John six. And then on the seventh. So, if you do have any questions, feel free to send an email and ask it further. Podcast.com, and we will talk to.

00;41;08;03 - 00;41;09;12
Chris 
You next week. So you guys.








In this episode, Brenton and Chris dive into the concept of being "drawn" to faith, exploring how God's grace overcomes resistance in bringing people to Him. They discuss the idea that some may believe they are Christians without truly knowing Christ, referencing key biblical passages that challenge superficial faith. Chris unpacks what it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus, emphasizing obedience, repentance, and daily communion with Him. They also touch on the importance of continually "feeding" on Jesus through scripture, community, and spiritual disciplines. Finally, they highlight the dangers of treating faith as a transactional relationship rather than a transformative journey of love and trust.