00;00;13;02 - 00;00;42;13
Chris
That's why we got to know God's Word and why theology really, truly does matter. Why? I love to preach God's Word and why I try to do it so passionately. Because it's not just facts or things that that don't really matter to the day to day or one of our lives. They literally matter in everything we do, every environment we live, every relationship that we are in.

00;00;42;15 - 00;00;53;23
Brenton
Well, welcome back to further. I am Brenton Graham. I'm actually out of town at the moment. So we're doing this, over the internet. So we're going to see how this goes. But, Chris, how are you doing?

00;00;53;25 - 00;00;59;13
Chris
I'm doing pretty good. It's, interesting to just be looking at you on a screen here, so.

00;00;59;13 - 00;01;01;09
Brenton
Yeah. Feel different.

00;01;01;11 - 00;01;09;13
Chris
Yeah. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. But, with strangers, I'm in the office. And you're not so screwed.

00;01;09;16 - 00;01;11;10
Brenton
Yeah, it's not how it's been recently.

00;01;11;11 - 00;01;12;25
Chris
No, no.

00;01;12;27 - 00;01;23;26
Brenton
But. Well, I'm going to I'm going to start this out by just having you put your, sports analyst hat on for a little bit. Okay. What were your thoughts? It was a that was a crazy Super Bowl.

00;01;23;28 - 00;01;40;04
Chris
Yeah. It was, disappointing. So since I'm a bears fan, I, never have a dog in the fighting Super Bowl. And so I, always just want really there to be a good game and interesting game, and it just wasn't.

00;01;40;10 - 00;01;41;24
Brenton
So I didn't get that.

00;01;41;27 - 00;01;54;29
Chris
The highlight was obviously the the Iowa boy, returning the interception for a touchdown. So that was, that was exciting. I don't know if you saw, but, before the game, he walked in with his, letterman jacket from high school, so.

00;01;55;05 - 00;01;55;29
Brenton
I didn't see that.

00;01;56;06 - 00;02;17;05
Chris
You know, he's from some school, I think northwest Iowa, like six different initials or so. There's, like, six different school districts all wrapped up in that one. So that's a few of our, podcast listeners will know what school it is, but it starts of the B, and he's got a C energy and an O, and I think an A, but it's like something that but anyway, I yeah.

00;02;17;08 - 00;02;17;19
Brenton
Iowa.

00;02;17;25 - 00;02;25;05
Chris
I mean again it was the commercials were better this year, I thought so it's a.

00;02;25;05 - 00;02;28;18
Brenton
Lot of, a lot of celebrity, appearances. I was.

00;02;28;20 - 00;02;32;27
Chris
Yeah. And was. Are you a Kendrick Lamar fan?

00;02;32;29 - 00;02;51;18
Brenton
You know, I might be the only person at the church that actually kind of enjoyed that. I think my favorite part of this whole, this whole Super Bowl year has been watching, like, Gen-X white men react to Kendrick's halftime. It's been pretty fun.

00;02;51;21 - 00;03;07;03
Chris
Yeah, I guess I should say, really, the other part that I enjoy was, the fact that Taylor Swift was only, you know, mentioned like, once or twice. We only saw her one on screen. So, that's the advantage of Travis Kelsey having a bad game.

00;03;07;06 - 00;03;14;07
Brenton
But it's true. Yeah. That was, that was a rough game for the Chiefs. But yeah, I'm sure they'll bounce back.

00;03;14;07 - 00;03;22;26
Chris
I think he's the most watched Super Bowl ever. I think I saw like 127 million people, which is just absolutely ridiculous. It's just crazy.

00;03;22;29 - 00;03;47;02
Brenton
That is crazy. Wow. Yeah. Half of America there. Yeah. All right, one more thing before we get into it. You mentioned it on Sunday, but, the all in preview nights are starting this week, starting on Sunday in Danville. And then we have, I believe, Monday and Tuesday in Burlington in for Madison, respectively. So, what can we expect from those?

00;03;47;04 - 00;04;26;29
Chris
Yeah, it's going to be a great night to get some more info on what, we believe the Lord is calling us to over these next two years. But more than that, I'm really looking forward to it. We we're we're going to have, an opportunity for people really to participate and to, experience, just, something that I think is going to help each and every one of us begin to discern what the Lord might be calling us to in this, a big part of the night is going to be looking back at the history of harmony and just how, God has been faithful time and time again to,

00;04;27;01 - 00;04;50;26
Chris
provide, as our people have stepped out, courageously, entrusted him, to do two big things, as we sought to reach our community, communities, really here in southeast Iowa and west central Illinois. And I think it's going to be super encouraging, for people just to be able to know a little bit more about the history of God's faithfulness to harmony.

00;04;50;26 - 00;05;19;10
Chris
That really stretches back about 170 years. And, just, how really what we are stepping into is nothing new. It's really, as I will say, part of the DNA of Harmony, is to tackle big things, for the Lord. And, I think it's going to be just a great opportunity, and we're going to have the ability to see that visually, and and everybody's gonna have the opportunity to step into that.

00;05;19;10 - 00;05;22;05
Chris
So, it's going to be a fun night.

00;05;22;08 - 00;05;46;04
Brenton
Good. Yeah. Well, I encourage you all to, to come out to one of those. Bring your community groups. Bring your groups. Yeah. Let's get a lot of people there and see what God's been doing and is going to do. So. All right, let's hop into the message. So, I gotta say, right off the top here, I really have enjoyed, all of your messages through John six.

00;05;46;04 - 00;06;11;00
Brenton
I think it's been, a good time. There's a lot of, important theology that comes out of that, passage, and I think it's just been a very, fruitful, time for, for me at least. And I think the church at large. So, jumping in to just verse 66, says, after this, many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

00;06;11;02 - 00;06;28;06
Brenton
And you you talked a bit about false disciples. I, I guess I want to start out with and you covered this, but just, kind of as a reminder, what would you say are some key markers that distinguish a real disciple from, from a false one?

00;06;28;09 - 00;07;06;20
Chris
Well, yeah. I mean, on Sunday, I talked about false disciples. Eventually. And I think that's a key word eventually doesn't mean necessarily from the beginning. In fact, I think a lot of times not from the beginning, we see that in our text. But they eventually false disciples find Jesus offensive. They they find his teaching offensive. They will come up to a point where something and if we use it today, they today will find something in the word of God that they just can't stomach.

00;07;06;22 - 00;07;37;03
Chris
And that could be, around an issue of sexuality. It could be around, an issue of, salvation in terms of, you know, you you can't work for your salvation. You can't contribute to your salvation in any way. It could be, in regards to finances and like, like money, that they, they find Jesus teaching about that, offensive to them.

00;07;37;05 - 00;08;00;04
Chris
And, they just refuse to accept it. And then, of course, this is tied in as we talked about, as they will eventually find the cross, offensive when they really, truly now again, I tried to make this, distinction, but, a lot of people don't find the cross offensive as long as you just simply see it as an example of his love for us.

00;08;00;04 - 00;08;49;24
Chris
And that just is a testament to how much God truly loves us. But when you start talking about, penile substitutionary atonement, which I assume was probably one of your favorite parts of messages I've ever preached, Bretton Woods big words are fun. But, and they really that the penal substitutionary atonement and, the one of the reasons I very intentionally use that is because it is the dividing line, especially today, between, for for people where people really get offensive, you know, like there is, denomination that has removed, one of the, verses from In Christ alone, from are they've tried to they actually they, they sought

00;08;49;24 - 00;09;19;02
Chris
permission to remove that verse and to, to change it, where it talks about to on that cross for Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied. Because they can't they find that's offensive. And that's a it's a major U.S. denomination, Protestant denomination. And so that, that's a major, major dividing line and where, true disciples.

00;09;19;02 - 00;09;49;12
Chris
Yes, they may struggle with Jesus teaching, and they may even struggle with what the cross says about them. Like it? It may not be comfortable. And I think, you know, I would say it's the Bible never offends us and we're not reading it. Right? Right. If it never, you know, if if Jesus is always nice and comfy and he's never getting up in our grill and we're never like, feeling, oh, I don't really like that, then I don't think we're we're not reading the sermon on the Mount for sure.

00;09;49;14 - 00;10;24;28
Chris
We're not understanding it, or failing, refusing to deal with it. So, ultimately, though, the difference between a real disciple and false disciple, is a real disciple will submit to it, even if they find it uncomfortable, and humbling. So but I do want to add something that I didn't talk about on Sunday. I think at the the end of the day, the there's something really important is, true disciples find Jesus like, they find him beautiful.

00;10;25;00 - 00;10;58;18
Chris
And I don't mean beautiful. And that's the way, like, physically attractive or anything like that. In fact, you know, Isaiah tells us that, you know, when he was here on earth, there wasn't anything physically attractive about him. But but they they, they see him as as glorious as something to be greatly desired as, they, they just, see him as the one to be worshiped and to give their life to is like, and I quote this all the time.

00;10;58;18 - 00;11;17;23
Chris
I'll just do it again. Security is for they see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. When they look at Jesus, they see the glory of God. And, he is the most glorious thing in the universe. So and false disciples just kind of like, okay, he's great, he's nice. As long as he helps me out and gives me what he wants and makes my life easy.

00;11;17;26 - 00;11;31;08
Chris
But but true disciples still find Jesus so glorious that even when they don't get what they want and life is hard and difficult, they still hold on. And they still worship him and they still follow him.

00;11;31;10 - 00;11;32;01
Brenton


00;11;32;04 - 00;11;59;06
Chris
You know another way to look at this passage? And again, time really didn't allow this. But those false disciples, you know, they come to Jesus, they're following him. Jesus even tells him this because they he fed him. He made them comfortable. They wanted him to perform more miracles. Like, what sign do you do for us? They want him to have nice teaching, you know, like, hey, make me feel good about myself.

00;11;59;08 - 00;12;21;02
Chris
They want him to be a political messiah. Which is. I mean, there's a lot we could say about that today, right? There's a lot of people who believe Jesus is a, in some way, a political messiah. And when he refuses, like, I'm not, you're not. Put me in that box. They're like, we're out of here because it's all really it's all about them and true disciples.

00;12;21;05 - 00;12;42;10
Chris
Even though they may not do this perfectly, but true disciples, they they, they understand and they believe that it is all about him and they seek to live. And in light of that, and I think false disciples, it's all about them. And when life does isn't about them, or Jesus apparently isn't about them, then it goes south pretty quickly.

00;12;42;12 - 00;13;29;09
Brenton
Yeah. So you're, you know, it's a it's a combination of, you know, kind of intellectual acceptance or mental assent to, specific things about Jesus. But it's also, you know, the actions that follow from that, you know, specifically, accepting his lordship in your life. And that's going to play out practically. But, I'm curious when we think about, you know, the, the pretty, typical like the biblical example of examine yourself and, you know, elders in the church are called to, to guard the church against, against wolves.

00;13;29;09 - 00;13;38;09
Brenton
Is this the the rubric that we would use to to determine some of those things if somebody is saved or if somebody is not saved?

00;13;38;11 - 00;14;12;04
Chris
I think so, I, I think another great place is first John. I mean, first John gives us, you know, tests that we can use, to, discern, if we and others are, true believers. So there's a the love test, there's the doctrinal test, there's the obedience test. There's three of them. Essentially, if you read through and John circles back to these over and over again, do you do you love others, love your brothers?

00;14;12;06 - 00;14;30;00
Chris
Do you believe and hold to the truth about Jesus? And then are you obedient to Jesus? Those are the three test. And, I think that those are kind of a microcosm of what we see in John six and really all throughout the, the New Testament.

00;14;30;02 - 00;14;56;27
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. And it's always a touchy subject, too, when you're, you know, attempting to discern or judge where, where somebody's at because, I mean, what you're really doing is trying to, to know their heart and that's, you know, it's impossible for us to truly know somebody's heart. And so Scripture has given us these, these tests, these things that we can, look to, to, to make a determination.

00;14;56;27 - 00;15;00;07
Brenton
But, you know, always in the hope of pulling someone back in.

00;15;00;07 - 00;15;26;23
Chris
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I would say this, though, you know, the tests are first and foremost for ourselves to, to, to give to ourselves their second. Then for those who are, purportedly leaders or teachers, and then it's only, you know, in a third instance in, in, in in many ways it's not it isn't even really extend to other people.

00;15;26;23 - 00;15;57;00
Chris
Like where we're called to try to discern if other people are believers or, or not. Like, we can use these to help other people to discern whether they are or not. But, you know, I think we can get too easily consumed with trying to apply these to other people. When that's not really, to be our concern, or at least certainly not our primary, even secondary concern.

00;15;57;02 - 00;16;17;12
Brenton
Okay, so this is the question that I really wanted to get at here. So is it do you think it's possible for someone that is a false disciple to to know that or, you know, you know, in this case, did Judas know that he wasn't a true disciple?

00;16;17;14 - 00;16;49;18
Chris
Yeah. I think we have to kind of read between the lines on that. I don't think that the the Bible tells us. Exactly. It would just seem to me that that likely what happened is like Judas was attracted to Jesus, just like the other 11 were, that at the beginning he was, as you know, Peter and James, John, Andrew, the rest of them, like, yeah, hey, Jesus has called us to follow him and we're, we're in on that.

00;16;49;21 - 00;17;17;05
Chris
I think that likely what happened is that Jesus didn't turn out to be the Messiah. That Judas thought that he was, that he he he wasn't a political, messiah. Like when Jesus does things like he does here in John six and refuses to allow the crowd to make him king. That Judas just is like, okay, I'm out.

00;17;17;07 - 00;17;50;20
Chris
I think all of the 12 disciples believe Jesus was came to be a political messiah initially. I mean, that's that's what the Jewish people were looking for. Yeah, that was the expectation. Almost all of them. And, and I think the differences here. Judas. Very well, just like when he got disappointed, like he decided to, to to turn on Jesus and maybe, you know, we're also told that Judas was a thief.

00;17;50;22 - 00;18;15;11
Chris
There's a story of where, Mary of Bethany, you know, breaks or spends a lot of money to anoint Jesus, and he gets upset about it, and and we're told, that he did so because he was a thief. You know, he used to take he was in charge of the money bag, like he was the he was the, you know, guy who who took care of all the funds for the ministry.

00;18;15;11 - 00;18;40;21
Chris
And he used to take some of that for himself because he was a thief. You know, maybe that's because he expected to get well, like, he expected, like this is going to make us wealthy. And then obviously that wasn't the case. And so but I don't think that he probably started out that way. Like, he was just, you know, he had these motives, these, you know, where he was going in, just from the very beginning.

00;18;40;21 - 00;18;51;18
Chris
And, and he's like, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm not in this for, for for real. I just want to be the guy who's eventually going to betray Jesus or anything like that.

00;18;51;20 - 00;19;26;00
Brenton
Yeah. It reminds me a little bit of Hebrews six. I think, you know, the the writer is kind of referring to these people that he says who have taste the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit. And so in some sense, you know, a false disciple can still gain some benefits of following Jesus for a time that there is there is even kind of on the secondary side, even for someone that isn't a true believer to there is things to be gained there, but that isn't necessarily equate to to eternal life either.

00;19;26;03 - 00;19;41;29
Brenton
So yeah, but yeah, maybe maybe completely unaware at that point too, that, you know, you're not, you're not doing it for any, you know, you're not aware that you're not a, that you're a false disciple. But but it comes eventually.

00;19;42;02 - 00;20;05;13
Chris
Yeah. I mean, I think there the human heart has almost an unlimited potential to deceive its own self. And so in the passage in Matthew seven where that I mentioned on Sunday, where there Jesus pictures people who really believe that they are believers and they even die believing that that is the case.

00;20;05;15 - 00;20;36;21
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. So, so this this is a passage where we see, you know, Jesus being incredibly offensive. To the people around him. And it's it's not it's certainly not the only time he did this. I'm curious how you think about this issue. You know, if we bring this into our modern context today, how do you, as a preacher, thinking, think about kind of writing the line between, grace and teaching offensive truths?

00;20;36;21 - 00;20;59;19
Brenton
And, you know, if I can kind of preempt your answer here because I think I know what it's going to be, that the the greatest thing is to teach offensive truth. But, you know, like, if you think the, the kind of evangelical scene seeker sensitive, we don't want to offend anyone versus, on the other hand, I don't know, Westboro Baptist.

00;20;59;19 - 00;21;07;27
Brenton
Right. Where it's only it's only judgment. How do you think about that kind of from from one side to the other?

00;21;08;00 - 00;21;46;00
Chris
Well, there's several things here, I, I think and I've not always done this. Well, I mean, I don't even know if I'm still doing it. Well, but you want people to be offended by the truth, not by about how you present the truth. So, in other words, the the preaching of the cross and of of, specially, and, and much of, the scriptures is offensive to sinful people.

00;21;46;00 - 00;22;23;26
Chris
I mean, like, it just is, it confronts us and, it it's not, palatable to our pride. But trying to we should try as all, as much as we can to present that truth in a way that is, you know, that is winsome, that is gracious. And it's not harsh. And so there's an old phrase, you know, don't beat the sheep.

00;22;23;28 - 00;23;02;02
Chris
And so you shepherd the sheep, but you don't, you know, beat them and, and, of course, that can maybe break down a little bit what you talk about sometimes people aren't the sheep, but you still don't. Even if they're not, you don't beat the goats either, so to speak. So it's there's a hard line and it requires, humility and, and also just like, I think it's helpful if you can keep in mind your own fallenness and sinfulness and the way that Jesus is gentle, with you.

00;23;02;05 - 00;23;05;21
Chris
But it's hard. It's a difficult line to one.

00;23;05;24 - 00;23;23;04
Brenton
Yeah. Well, I think I think the first thing you said there was it was a good way to think about this, that, you know, we want the the truth to be offensive, not our behavior. And, you know, I think we see that in Paul, too, where he's and he he preaches crucified, Christ crucified. And it's a it's foolishness to the Gentiles.

00;23;23;04 - 00;23;30;22
Brenton
And it's a stumbling block to the Jews. And so the, the message is already offensive enough that we don't need, we don't need to add to that.

00;23;30;24 - 00;24;02;14
Chris
Yeah. And I think that, you know, there's a you bring up Paul, there's a passages where he says, I wish those guys would just emasculate themselves. I mean, like yourself, I mean, there I think that there is room for strong, strong words and, and and, especially when you talk about truth and error and, we were talking about false teachers and you talking about people who are, just, you know, their sin is egregious.

00;24;02;17 - 00;24;35;09
Chris
There's, there's, there's room and there's a time to, to to be strong about that. And, but that needs to be balanced by, you know, it can't always be like that. Right. Like it's a pastor, a preacher. And as Christians, we need to, very variety in the way that we approach people and we speak to like, like there will be times to be strong and there in their times to be gentle, all hopefully with the spirit of grace.

00;24;35;11 - 00;24;56;03
Brenton
So, yeah. Yeah. And it probably changes a little bit as you preach, because it's going out to a broad audience where as when we, you know, are talking to a specific audience or maybe a one on one where, you know, there's there's a grievous sin, an error or something that, that that could be more of a place to, to make sure the message.

00;24;56;03 - 00;25;23;16
Brenton
Okay, you you also mentioned that, you know, the exclusivity of Jesus being the only way to God is, is a topic that is being thrown out today by by many people and even, you know, many churches. What are, some other core Christian beliefs that that we should really put work into being ready to defend in our culture?

00;25;23;18 - 00;26;04;17
Chris
Well, I mean, the sexuality issue is just an easy I mean, like easy one to go to, right? And, The biblical teaching on marriage between one man and one woman for a lifetime, it's, there's the very clearly under attack. Have been under act for a long time. All the issues surrounding that, including two genders, sexuality, you know, sex between men only, in the bounds of marriage between a man and a woman.

00;26;04;19 - 00;26;37;20
Chris
And we just need to, be able to to defend that, with the scripture says and and even culturally and why it's important, why marriage between a man and a woman is important. So there's that, I think the, inerrancy of the Scripture, because ultimately, at the end of the day, if if we can't trust the scriptures, that's the foundation for everything else that we believe and out of our doctrinal principles and hold to.

00;26;37;23 - 00;26;52;06
Chris
So I think that those are the, the, the three things that initially come to mind. I mean, we talked about, Jesus being fully God and fully man. I've talked about that so much in John already, and maybe that maybe should be obvious.

00;26;52;09 - 00;27;11;23
Brenton
But yeah. Yeah. That's good. So, so thinking about those, those things, you know, if somebody is, you know, listening to this and having the reaction of like, I don't know how to defend that, what would you what would you suggest?

00;27;11;25 - 00;27;42;27
Chris
Well, one I would start by like we try to provide, solid basis in our Sunday morning sermons. For that, we have a few classes that we offer on a regular basis that address these issues. And it can help to sure that, we have a new resource, video resource that we've made available that offers all kinds of classes.

00;27;42;29 - 00;28;12;15
Chris
You actually, Brennan would know more about that a lot more than I, about that than I would. Yeah. And it's free right now. Media. There's a lot of great resources there. Again, I lean on you, but there's some great apologetics, books out there. And I think one place that I really would, would tell people to start is to get a good, to get a good book on the Bible.

00;28;12;17 - 00;28;41;12
Chris
And, there I actually going to recommend a book. I, I don't recommend the author. But I will recommend the book is called God. God wrote a book by James McDonald. And it's a very simple, basic level. Starting point. Okay. So so again, he's, he's a pastor that, had a moral failing and not somebody I would tell you to, to follow.

00;28;41;12 - 00;29;07;20
Chris
But the the book is, is, basic is a good starting point, and it just gives you the basics about how the Bible, we can trust that the Bible is the word of God and is in there and in its original manuscripts. So and without that foundation, you know, the other the other doctrines can topple relatively quickly.

00;29;07;22 - 00;29;34;02
Brenton
Yeah. For sure. You know, as I, as I think about that, I think the, the first thing I would suggest is maybe not not to run to apologetics. If you're just getting started, run to theology, figure out first before. Yeah. Before trying to defend it. And so, you know, there's, there's lots of, different, options for that one that comes to mind.

00;29;34;05 - 00;30;01;18
Brenton
Although he is a Presbyterian, but, Ligonier, ministries has been really invaluable to me as of, as I've been learning, they have a website and they have just tons of resources on there that are sure really good. And then, you know, even I think right now, Steve Litchfield is teaching cultural apologetics, and I equip you and I think, you know, if there's enough demand for that, I'm sure it could come back.

00;30;01;18 - 00;30;25;16
Brenton
I think that that's, that's a great avenue. And, yeah. There's there's plenty of ways to learn. So anyway. Yeah, for sure. All right. So we did have, a question submitted this week, and I want to get to that. So, the question is, could you flesh out your definition and maybe some examples of liberal Christianity?

00;30;25;16 - 00;30;29;04
Brenton
What did what did you mean by that?

00;30;29;06 - 00;31;30;23
Chris
Well, I think I would clarify on, the question like this. This can get confusing because I would not, put, things like caring for the poor, seeking biblical justice. And those kind of issues under the liberal Christianity banner, so to speak. So, you know, it's not liberal, to, hold to the, the, you know, the biblical really mandate to care for widows and orphans and the poor, and the immigrant, and, those things that that's just Christianity.

00;31;30;25 - 00;31;59;09
Chris
And we see that all over the Old Testament, and we see it repeatedly in the New Testament as well. And, unfortunately, sometimes, that gets kind of put into that bucket, so to speak, and just thrown in there, when I'm talking about, liberal Christianity or what gets labeled as liberal Christianity, I would be talking about people who do not hold to the inerrancy of Scripture.

00;31;59;12 - 00;32;29;01
Chris
We talking about people who, would hold to would not hold to a biblical sex ethic. Again, things, related to marriage, gender, sexuality, people who would, not hold to, the penal substitutionary atonement. There's that, that phrase again, people who would perhaps not hold to the fact that Jesus is fully God and fully man and one person.

00;32;29;04 - 00;32;58;14
Chris
So we're talking about doctrinal, issues here. Not, things that sometimes become, political or, get thrown into, you know, there's we tend to talk about a term called social justice. And, and I think that we should probably have, a podcast about that whole issue. And, it might be helpful to people here.

00;32;58;16 - 00;33;26;00
Chris
And I'm not saying that, you know, that I'm supportive of what what our culture calls social justice. But what happens then is like we throw out like anybody who is concerned about issues of biblical, just what I would call biblical justice, gets thrown into that liberal category. Does that make sense?

00;33;26;02 - 00;33;53;03
Brenton
Yeah, it absolutely does. I think I think that it's so easy. And what commonly happens is the the terms liberal Christianity and liberal like politically get conflated. So, you know, when you when you think about, you know, how you started this out was what we should it's not just an act of caring for the poor or caring for someone that's in need that makes someone liberal.

00;33;53;03 - 00;34;11;25
Brenton
But but when we take that into the political world, then it's it's automatically conflated with, you know, the, the, welfare policies and immigration policies. And it's just they're, they're two different issues when it comes to, like what a liberal Christian is. And so, yeah, I think I think.

00;34;11;25 - 00;34;55;10
Chris
That, yeah, I, I think that, so it's not liberal to believe that we should have a concern for the immigrants, in our country, for sure. Liberal and biblically speaking, like there that that's not, that's not, it's not liberal to think that we should care for our environment. Okay, now what what is liberal is, is believing that caring for our environment and caring for immigrants and for the poor, like that is actually the gospel, right?

00;34;55;13 - 00;34;56;29
Brenton
Sure.

00;34;57;01 - 00;35;26;05
Chris
So I, I don't know if I'm confusing the issue more here, but I do think the there's important nuance in here and that people can get this wrong on both sides. Okay. You know, and so let me just try to, to be really clear on this, is that, liberal Christianity, oftentimes, you know, they're all about what you might call social justice.

00;35;26;07 - 00;35;56;05
Chris
And the problem there is, is that they they believe that the gospel is, that we should care for the poor and we should care for the environment. And we should, you know, all these social issues. That's liberal Christianity. The gospel is not you're saved by caring for the poor, and you're caring for the immigrants and like the, the environment and all that kind of stuff, where the gospel is, is, were saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

00;35;56;07 - 00;36;21;22
Chris
But true biblical Christianity, believing that true gospel, understands that there are implications for believers as, people who have experienced the grace of God. Now we have responsibilities that are laid out for us in Scripture to care for the poor, to to care about God's creation, to, care for the aliens in the strangers amongst us.

00;36;21;22 - 00;36;45;22
Chris
And I'm just quoting there, I'm just quoting the Bible like there. So it it what liberal Christianity would do is like, this is part of the gospel and this is what saves you. And that's, that's the issue and that's the problem along with like these other issues about what you who you're married to, who you have sex with, those things don't like the Bible doesn't say anything about those who.

00;36;45;25 - 00;36;49;25
Chris
We have complete freedom in those matters.

00;36;49;28 - 00;37;26;05
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's good that, you know, you you kind of talk about it as like it being explicitly, the, the gospel. But I think it's also possible for these, these ideas that come from culture, what we would call social justice, warriors, they sometimes do get smuggled in as secondaries to Christianity as well, where, you know, I think, I think that we would all agree that our, our job is to care for, care for the Sojourner.

00;37;26;05 - 00;37;58;08
Brenton
There's there's plenty of commands about that. But then, you know, I think, I think there was a time for a while that there was a lot of a lot of big name pastors that were bringing in these kind of, these ideas that, about, you know, racism specifically that it was, you know, it was it was made to be, I think, a much bigger deal within Christianity than than it needed to be.

00;37;58;11 - 00;38;08;17
Brenton
Yeah. No. And so, yeah, I think it could be explicit or it could be, you know, smuggled in, smuggled in alongside of it. Right.

00;38;08;19 - 00;38;36;16
Chris
Well, the, again, you know, you, you know, I talk about nuance all the time and, Yeah. So you take the racism issue, one extreme is everything is it's all about racism. And then on the other extreme is, oh, it's not an issue. Right. And that we just we see that from the New Testament. It's just not the case at all.

00;38;36;18 - 00;38;56;17
Chris
And, like that there, there was racism, real, real issues in the early church between the Jews and the Gentiles. But at the same time, it wasn't by far the only thing and that they just were consumed like they're consumed by.

00;38;56;20 - 00;39;14;06
Brenton
So and there was no compromise from, from Paul on those issues. Right. Like he, he kept everything in incorrect categories. And, you know, the gospel is here. And then here's the secondary issues that need dealt with. But but the two don't mix.

00;39;14;08 - 00;39;40;11
Chris
Well where the only thing I would say to that is, is that for for Paul, it's like this issue of and I don't even know that it's, you know, racism is even the exactly the right, the right term. But, you know, when Peter is refusing to eat with, the Gentiles, when the Judaizers showed up, he called him out for it.

00;39;40;13 - 00;39;41;13
Brenton


00;39;41;16 - 00;39;49;19
Chris
Right. And so so when it's when it's compromising the gospel, that's when it's going to be front and center for, for Paul.

00;39;49;21 - 00;39;53;07
Brenton
For sure. All right. Well that's not a topic I plan on getting into.

00;39;53;07 - 00;40;00;11
Chris
But yeah. Well we probably, probably maybe focus some more questions in here.

00;40;00;11 - 00;40;09;25
Brenton
Kind of feels like the whole social justice movement has become it's kind of come out of vogue a little bit. And so, it seems like it was a big, big topic, you know?

00;40;10;00 - 00;40;11;15
Chris
Yeah. And there is.

00;40;11;15 - 00;40;11;28
Brenton
Much about it.

00;40;11;28 - 00;40;36;16
Chris
I just I just want to so everybody hopefully you can, can, can hear this because, even anytime we talk about this, I'm worried like people are going to get they're going to misunderstand the, the problem with social justice is the way that our culture and, and quite frankly, even the many in the church have, use it and they understand it.

00;40;36;18 - 00;41;05;12
Chris
And, and their, their major issues with that. My concern on the other side, though, is, is that because of that and in reaction to that, we fail to see that there are true matters of biblical justice. That, that, that that we as believers are called to, address, and so, I just, I see errors on both sides.

00;41;05;12 - 00;41;15;15
Chris
And I also feel like even oftentimes the position that I've just a spouse out here can get you, you know, pilloried by both sides.

00;41;15;17 - 00;41;17;18
Brenton
Yeah.

00;41;17;20 - 00;41;44;09
Chris
Right. I mean, like, we we have a responsibility to care for the poor in southeast Iowa, to the best of our ability. But that's not our main mission. Our main mission is to preach the gospel. And we cannot afford to get those things, switched or, and, nor can we afford to leave either of them absent from,

00;41;44;11 - 00;41;47;03
Chris
What the Lord has called us to do.

00;41;47;06 - 00;41;53;08
Brenton
Yeah. All right. Do you have any questions?

00;41;53;10 - 00;41;53;25
Chris
Yeah.

00;41;53;27 - 00;42;14;08
Brenton
Feel free. Feel free to send us an email. Ask it further. Podcast.com. I did have one more question. I think we're running up against 45 minutes here, so I think we'll cut it off. But, yeah. Thanks for, Joining me via technology today. And, we will talk to you guys next week.