00;00;00;09 - 00;00;10;00
Brenton
Welcome back to episode 100 and Further On Britain grim. Chris. Did you think we'd make it this far?

00;00;10;02 - 00;00;25;29
Chris
It's probably if you'd asked me, two years ago, say. Well, I'm not sure, but we, you know, we really just started out and say we're going to give this a whirl as we start. Roman says, actually, yeah. When we decided to, to give it a go and. Yeah, so it's it's been fun.

00;00;25;29 - 00;00;36;06
Brenton
So yeah, I remember the first episode sitting there that way too small round table we were at in that studio. We got a little bigger spot.

00;00;36;08 - 00;00;42;16
Chris
Yeah, we were recording in Danville at that time, so now we've moved to the big metropolis of Burlington.

00;00;42;16 - 00;00;43;29
Brenton
That's right.

00;00;44;01 - 00;00;45;03
Chris
Yeah. Fun with you, man.

00;00;45;07 - 00;01;04;11
Brenton
Yeah, it has been good. Hopefully it's been good for you guys. Wherever you're at, I, I was kind of racking my brain over what we could do to celebrate this thing. And because I keep getting people coming up and ask me, oh, you got episode 100 coming up. What are you doing for it? And I'm always like, I have no idea.

00;01;04;14 - 00;01;10;15
Brenton
There's not really my department, but, I thought about throwing some bloopers together.

00;01;10;17 - 00;01;13;16
Chris
You're kind of a party guy. I mean, come on.

00;01;13;19 - 00;01;15;09
Brenton
Yeah. That's me.

00;01;15;12 - 00;01;18;00
Chris
Big party.

00;01;18;03 - 00;01;22;24
Brenton
I thought about throwing some bloopers together, but then I realized that we never have had any, so.

00;01;22;27 - 00;01;29;23
Chris
We were right. We should have asked our wives. They're. They're more on the the party I did my wife.

00;01;29;23 - 00;01;34;01
Brenton
Yeah. I'm actually going with her suggestion. Okay. She's better than I am, so thank you.

00;01;34;01 - 00;01;34;13
Chris
Nikki.

00;01;34;14 - 00;02;00;23
Brenton
Yes. So here's what we're going to do. Tomorrow we're going to put out a social media post, and, what we'd like you to you guys to do is share it. If you do share, your name is going to go in a list and we have some, some resources that we're going to give out. And so a few that we've put together, so far are like, a commentary on John, by RC Sproul.

00;02;00;25 - 00;02;24;09
Brenton
It's going to help us kind of as we finish out, John, for you to kind of dive deeper in your own study. I also threw in a study Bible. It's an ESV study Bible. And then, we have another book called Gentle and Lowly. So just some, some things, to help you guys dive into, you know, in your personal study what the things that we talk about here.

00;02;24;09 - 00;02;32;12
Brenton
And so that's all I got. So thank you, Nikki, for that suggestion. Sure. And, yeah, it's been a it's been a good two years.

00;02;32;12 - 00;02;36;25
Chris
If we had, you know, further swag, we could, you know, have.

00;02;36;25 - 00;02;38;03
Brenton
Considered that to.

00;02;38;05 - 00;02;39;07
Chris
Give that album.

00;02;39;07 - 00;02;42;06
Brenton
But the best motion is, is you know.

00;02;42;09 - 00;02;48;25
Chris
Would have my face on it so nobody would want it, but. Yeah.

00;02;48;27 - 00;03;10;27
Brenton
All right. Okay. So, let's get into the sermon a little bit. So I know, I know this this topic specifically of shame is has been a big focus of yours over the last year or so. Why is that? Why do you see this as such an important topic for, for not only our church but the, you know, Christianity as a whole?

00;03;10;29 - 00;03;36;05
Chris
Yeah. Well, probably to go back to really the origins of, of where I really begin to dive into this as part of my own, story of transformation. And just, as I've been been I've been I've shared this and been doing a lot of work, personally for a number of years now. A lot of it led, to this topic, either directly or indirectly.

00;03;36;07 - 00;04;03;23
Chris
And so so I've been doing my own work and then, giving myself to actually studying it, more, deeply, specifically from a through a theological lens, a biblical lens. It's just become very evident about how, how, how center stage shame takes in almost everybody's story. I probably go as far as, say, everybody's story to to one degree or another.

00;04;03;25 - 00;04;32;18
Chris
And then, and something I alluded to, I just briefly touched on, on, on Sunday is the fact that I have really come to understand that that much of the sin that we create, or that we. Yeah, not create, but that we give ourselves to, is directly related in some way to our shame. And much of the time, it is an effort to actually deal deal with our shame.

00;04;32;18 - 00;05;02;21
Chris
Or is, because we are feeling feelings shame. And so, it's just become very, very evident to me that it doesn't take very long in talking to someone. If you're really trying to understand who they are and their story and why they think the way they think, talk to a talk, act the way they act, that shame is playing, a part in that.

00;05;02;21 - 00;05;35;09
Chris
And isn't even necessarily in sinful ways. So much is you just pulling away from people or just, you know, I mean, there's a myriad of different ways in which it comes out, but I've especially, seen this in terms of, even, you know, a lot of my ministry these days is, is with leaders, and, and so I just see it even playing out in the lives of our leaders.

00;05;35;09 - 00;05;54;00
Chris
And so, you know, if, like, if this is a big part of my story and it's a big part of the, the, the, the men and women that I'm serving with and leading the church with, then that's probably a pretty good indication that pretty much everybody is struggling, with it as well, in one degree or another.

00;05;54;01 - 00;06;18;15
Brenton
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. We, you know, a few weeks ago, or maybe it was last week, we talked about the kind of lack of good material on, on these topics. And, you know, when you think about how even Jellicle ism has, has really handled this issue, what what comes to mind, like, has has the church done a good job with this?

00;06;18;16 - 00;06;23;27
Brenton
Have they talked about it too much, too little? What what's your experience with that?

00;06;23;29 - 00;06;53;29
Chris
Probably not talked about enough. When we do talk about it, it's often on a surface level, or not necessarily. Maybe, a surface level, but it's, it's kind of, the Jesus took our shame, so you shouldn't feel shame anymore. Yeah. Okay. And, that's that's true. True. But but there's, there's, I think more to helping people, actually to find freedom from it.

00;06;53;29 - 00;07;17;24
Chris
And part of that is actually learning why we experience it in the in the first place, both from a biblical standpoint where it comes from, but also so there's I the sermon title on Sunday is a story about shame. So we see that in in the Bible, but we also have our own story. So where does where does shame come from in my life and okay, I'm a sinner.

00;07;17;24 - 00;07;48;08
Chris
Okay, great. But there's there's more to it than that. And, this ties into the week before with our emotions or emotions. Or can be really helpful in us understanding if we're willing to dig into that and maybe sometimes get some help in that. And so I think that the way that we typically deal with it is either, kind of on a surface level, or we don't talk about it at all.

00;07;48;11 - 00;08;12;07
Chris
And, and this is because, as I mentioned on Sunday, shame is self referential. And it's we feel shameful for feeling it. Because you shouldn't Jesus took your shame, so you shouldn't feel it. And then on the other hand, the evangelical church is really good at making people feel shame. And so, I mean, that's a whole nother conversation.

00;08;12;10 - 00;08;34;29
Chris
Right. In, in, in sometimes, you know, we, we just talk about it even or talk about sin in a, on that healthy, unhelpful way that that causes it. More are adds to it. So to speak.

00;08;35;01 - 00;09;01;24
Brenton
Yeah. Can can you expand on that a little bit like where do you think the church has, has gone wrong with how, you know, the, the I think it's not uncommon for churches to heap more shame on people maybe even than intended. What do you think is, is causing that? How how do we how do we talk about sin rightly and and the wrath of God rightly?

00;09;01;26 - 00;09;05;25
Brenton
Without, doing what we're trying to of.

00;09;05;25 - 00;09;38;14
Chris
Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean I, I started out on Sunday saying this is a very complicated topic. Sure. Right. Because it comes from a variety of sources. And it's also unhealthy and healthy that it is a healthy shame. Okay. And so any time you talk about a topic, even if you talk about a, a sin in the healthiest, like the most gospel centered, gracious way, people who are committing that sin and are going to feel shame.

00;09;38;15 - 00;10;10;01
Chris
Sure. And that's not but that's not a bad thing, if that if they are as they are, are committing that sin and they need to turn from it and need to be, to repent and find redemption, that's that's a good thing. The, the the tough thing for us in the church and where I think that the church and I and I include myself in this is is often gets it wrong is is, you know, Jesus.

00;10;10;03 - 00;10;37;22
Chris
Well, we read in John chapter one, he came. He was full of grace and full of truth. And so we've been probably much better on the true side than on the grace side. And so how do you talk about certain sins? And, and we're going to get to John eight here after Easter. And, John eight starts and we'll have a whole discussion about whether that passage is actually in the Bible or not.

00;10;37;23 - 00;10;55;12
Chris
Okay. So that'll be interesting too, but it's a woman caught in adultery, and pretty much everybody believes so. But just say it here that that's an authentic story. Does this really happen, whether it should be in the Bible or in that part of John? I'll address that in enough in a month or so. But it it almost has surely really happened.

00;10;55;12 - 00;11;18;14
Chris
And what is Jesus? So this woman is caught in adultery and the men are shaming her for what she's done right there about the stone. And they're heaping shame on her. And and, what Jesus does, it's really, really interesting is, you know, he says, those of you who are without sin throw the first stone. So he's showing the woman grace.

00;11;18;16 - 00;11;38;06
Chris
Okay, then Jesus is down there and, you know, right in, in the desert or the sand or whatever. And he looks up and all the, all the people who have brought her to be stone, you know, throwing her, walked away. And then he says to her, he does. He doesn't say, okay, you're good to go. It's all Grace.

00;11;38;09 - 00;11;58;09
Chris
He says, go and leave your life of sin, or go and sin no more. And so, I think that's a just a great model for us. And I, I think sometimes we just need to we need to learn to show people grace first and then talk about the truth.

00;11;58;11 - 00;11;59;18



00;11;59;21 - 00;12;20;04
Chris
We we tend to maybe leave with the truth. And then if they respond positively, we'll show you grace. But how are we going to how are we going to show you? Right. That doesn't mean, like we we we we cover over and say, what you've done is no big deal. And she's never said she's she's not. What she did is okay.

00;12;20;06 - 00;12;45;02
Chris
But he, he, he makes it clear to her that he is willing to accept her and that he is going to come to her in a nonjudgmental way. And that ties into this whole shame thing is like, and I mentioned about being a hopefully what we want to create here is a culture, where of where we're going to show people grace and there's going to be a lack of judgmental ism.

00;12;45;05 - 00;13;10;05
Chris
But the reason that we judge other people is because we are first, most of the time judging ourselves, and we're judging other people as a way to manage our shame. I'm going to I'm going to judge person because that makes me feel better about myself. And what we don't often see is that that's because we're trying to deal with our deal with our shame.

00;13;10;05 - 00;13;39;00
Chris
And so if we can step back from that and learn to, and I don't like this language, and so I'm going to mediate this in a second. But if we can learn to show ourself grace, okay. And that can enable us then to like, alleviate our shame, hopefully, which will then enable us to be able to do that more effectively with other people.

00;13;39;00 - 00;14;07;24
Chris
Now, the reason I say I don't like the phrase show ourselves grace, because what I really mean, that's what we hear a lot, even in Christian circles. What I really mean by that is, is that we, what I was talking about on Sunday is like, we have the righteousness of Christ. In other words, like, we really come to understand and to know the grace that God has given us.

00;14;07;27 - 00;14;23;10
Chris
We we receive accept his grace, and, and and once we are able to do that and that his his love covers our sin. And I really. Okay. I'm covered.

00;14;23;13 - 00;14;24;13



00;14;24;16 - 00;14;37;03
Chris
I can accept that. Then then then I don't need to judge you for what you are doing in order to, you know, make myself feel better about my myself. So that was a long answer. But now.

00;14;37;05 - 00;15;13;25
Brenton
That's helpful. I think just, you know, me listening on this side, I think, I don't know what it is. Totally. But like, as you say, we need to we need to show grace before truth. Like my my first reaction is kind of like flags are going up of, like, this kind of antinomian response to sin. And I like, I know that's not where you're at, but I think that is probably going to be some people's response to this is, are we are we dealing with sin rightly or are we, you know, first coming with grace and kind of just covering over and over that sin.

00;15;13;28 - 00;15;16;29
Brenton
And so, yeah, I, I don't know, I don't have a question there. I just.

00;15;17;07 - 00;15;45;12
Chris
Yeah. Well, I, I think if we, if it's simply grace and you never get to the truth. Yeah. But if, if we really watch, you know, how Jesus. You know, he got accused of being a friend of sinners, right? Is like he. He's a Zacchaeus. Like he he he says, hey, come down from the tree. I'm going to your house.

00;15;45;12 - 00;16;08;14
Chris
Like I'm inviting myself over your house. Well, he doesn't come down and say, hey, you're a tax collector, like you need to, you know, you need to get it straight here, buddy. And then I'll I'll come over. I'm coming over. And then then they obviously have a conversation where, I mean, but it was interesting that the stories were not even told about the conversation, like or like he they got it.

00;16;08;16 - 00;16;35;12
Chris
Jesus just says he starts giving away all his money. And Jesus says, salvation has come to this man's house. And that's a fairly consistent theme I find in the Gospels. So, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times in, in the church, we, we have this such a need to, to feel like we're right. That, that that's we've got to, to be right and we lead with that.

00;16;35;12 - 00;16;42;25
Chris
And I think underneath that is a lot is the need to be right is a shame issue.

00;16;42;27 - 00;16;44;12
Brenton
Just like everything.

00;16;44;14 - 00;17;10;20
Chris
But you think about that because if I'm not right, that means I'm might be wrong. And if I'm wrong, that mean that's embarrassing or humiliating or I'm less than or I'm not great as. And so it's I really think the more that you dive into this topic, the more that you use, you see, that many, most, maybe almost all of our issues are tied to this issue.

00;17;10;20 - 00;17;20;25
Chris
And so it's it's fair to say, you know, I mean, you can cut me off any time here, but let's talk about pornography for a second. What you may think is it is are we going here?

00;17;20;28 - 00;17;25;15
Brenton
Yeah, we can go there.

00;17;25;17 - 00;18;09;16
Chris
I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that pornography struggles. The answer to it is not that it's primarily a lust issue, but it's a shame. It's actually there's something underneath of that that, we're trying to deal with, our shame and in some type of way. Now it is. It does become a lust issue, for sure, but then it becomes even like the self referential thing is like you, you are giving the pornography because you, are trying to deal with this issue, this underlying issue, and then you feel shame because of what you've done.

00;18;09;22 - 00;18;29;14
Chris
And then it just the cycle just kind of repeats over and over again. And some studies have actually shown that in the church, people who who go to church or people who, are believers, actually pornography can be have a, be a more powerful addiction because they, they actually have a knowledge and they are told they know it's wrong.

00;18;29;17 - 00;18;48;12
Chris
Yeah. So if you don't know that, you know, like or know or believe that pornography is wrong, the shame is probably still there, but it's just not front and center. If you or someone who goes to church in and you hear messages and you know the church's position on pornography and you're giving yourself to it, that's an extra shame.

00;18;48;14 - 00;19;15;27
Chris
Which then to deal with the shame, you need an outlet and a release, something to get rid of that. And so that's where it fuels pornography and and all of that. And so I think you can make a case that alcoholism, drug addiction, on and on that they are shame is almost always at the center of those stories in some way.

00;19;15;27 - 00;19;41;12
Chris
And again, we got to be careful because the world would have us think that the problem is just to get rid of your shame. You need to stop feeling shame. Right? And that's that's not it. Like, yes, we need to be rid of are ashamed of the way that we were rid of our shame is, is, is is through repentance and and turning to to Jesus.

00;19;41;15 - 00;20;12;25
Chris
And now I know somebody right now is saying like you saying that every, every cause of shame needs to be repented of. Not necessarily, but but generally, generally speaking, even when we feel shame because of what's been done to us, we adapt behaviors to cope with that, that are sinful. Does it does that make sense? Yeah. And so repentance is almost always going to be in the mix when it comes to redemption and healing from from shame even if it's not the whole whole story.

00;20;12;29 - 00;20;15;18
Chris
So yeah. Anyway, there's, there's a lot there.

00;20;15;18 - 00;20;30;07
Brenton
But yeah. Well a lot of those sins you talked about kind of lend themselves to pulling back into the darkness to like, we're we're wanting to keep those things secret as well, which is, you know, cyclical with, with those kind of.

00;20;30;10 - 00;20;37;09
Chris
It's a vicious that's the problem. And shame is a, it's a vicious, vicious cycle. Yeah. Yeah.

00;20;37;12 - 00;20;38;09



00;20;38;11 - 00;21;04;14
Brenton
Okay. So you, you did say that shame can express itself in a multitude of ways. You said it can be a bit like a shapeshifter, you know, in what ways can it show itself. And and I don't even know if we're talking about like the, you know, the actual sin that that's produced by it. But in, in our, in our own minds, like, how can we kind of cover over shame with something else?

00;21;04;16 - 00;21;13;28
Chris
Yeah. I think you can either be shame ful or shame less.

00;21;14;00 - 00;21;14;21

Okay.

00;21;14;23 - 00;21;44;22
Chris
Okay. So, and what I mean by shameful is it's just like you're just stuck in. I'm terrible. I'm horrible. I'm a loser. I'm stupid. It's it's really, you know, we all talk to ourselves and, like, what? What is your voice saying. About you. And, and again we are sinful people and you know, Paul says so wretched man that I am.

00;21;44;25 - 00;22;30;22
Chris
But you don't get stuck there. You're So, so there's that, and that just shows up in a myriad of ways. Like I mentioned, introversion is one. And I'm not saying like introverts are, you know, struggle with shame more than extroverts. I'm just using that as an example of like, I think sometimes, introverts are more introverted than they are naturally, simply because it's, it's it's a shame thing because, like, I, I just can't, be around people or let people know me or let people in because then if they know who I really am, yeah, you know, I'm going to be rejected and then there's the shame less where you just like,

00;22;30;24 - 00;23;01;05
Chris
I'm not going to feel ashamed. This is a shame. I'm in and, you know, like, that's who I am. That's, you know, and like, there's nothing shameful about that. And, and we could think of extreme examples, you know, in our culture. No, but I think the same thing is, is is true. I think, one of my concerns is in the church, more is people are are more comfortable with shameful behavior or shameful language than they are and the name that they actually should be.

00;23;01;07 - 00;23;19;22
Chris
So that sounds maybe a side point, but, but I think you hear people like, I see this often, like they're self-deprecating. And so they're, they make him fun, like, they make fun of themselves and they can be they can actually be funny.

00;23;19;24 - 00;23;35;14
Chris
You be funny. Yeah. And, you know, like, oh, he's he's, you know, funny guy or meets humble guy and but but really what it is is that shame speaking loud and clear because it's, it's a way to cover up what's going on inside. Yeah. Yeah.

00;23;35;14 - 00;23;38;15
Brenton
I can relate.

00;23;38;17 - 00;23;39;22

Yeah, so can I.

00;23;39;24 - 00;24;07;14
Brenton
Moving on. In your last application point, you, you talked about vulnerability. You know, in order to move toward God and others, we need to be open and honest about, what's going on. So this is obviously scary because it can open us up to to more pain in the end. Many of us have experience with with that, we thought, you know, we thought we could trust someone, but later found out that we couldn't.

00;24;07;14 - 00;24;17;18
Brenton
And and now were hurt through that interaction. What would you say to someone who who doesn't want to be vulnerable because they've been burned by it in the past?

00;24;17;20 - 00;24;20;16
Chris
I'd say it's completely understandable.

00;24;20;18 - 00;24;21;22

Yeah.

00;24;21;25 - 00;24;50;23
Chris
And tragically, most of us have experiences with that in the church. So, I would not want to just, you know, say, hey, you just need to move past that. And, and you see, you go over it and or anything like that because it's just like, I'm sure you have your own story, our stories about that. And I certainly do.

00;24;50;23 - 00;25;05;02
Chris
And I know a lot of people, have I think that something you probably heard me say before, maybe multiple times at this point, you know, episode 100, you've heard me say everything I've had to say.

00;25;05;07 - 00;25;06;08
Brenton
And you've said some things over.

00;25;06;08 - 00;25;16;03
Chris
The years twice, or more. I really believe that life is a choice between hard and hard.

00;25;16;05 - 00;25;16;26
Brenton
Yeah.

00;25;16;29 - 00;25;46;05
Chris
Difficult and difficult. And it's just which difficult is going to lead you to to healing. And so when it comes to shame, coming out of shame is difficult or facing is difficult, but not facing it is also difficult. And which choice is going to, you know, hopefully lead you to, to, to hope and healing, which actually the scriptures would point us to.

00;25;46;08 - 00;26;08;16
Chris
And so, I would want to, acknowledge the, the, the difficulty of it and it can be scary and challenging and not sure and all that, but shame. Well, and the evil one like you to do nothing less than to to remain, you know.

00;26;08;19 - 00;26;09;07



00;26;09;09 - 00;26;35;04
Chris
Without being vulnerable. Now, here's the reality about vulnerability. And we gotta be careful because, like, as it's probably obvious at this point, I could talk about this stuff for a long time. We are vulnerable. Okay? Okay. Like there is we are vulnerable. Means there is no denying that. And I should say there is no denying that we we do try to deny it, but we are vulnerable.

00;26;35;04 - 00;26;54;14
Chris
The question is, are we going to acknowledge that and are we going to, be vulnerable in a way that's going to be healthy? So just think about Adam and Eve. When they were in the garden, they were naked in the shade. They were they were vulnerable, like they were not impervious. And that should be obvious given what happened.

00;26;54;16 - 00;27;22;12
Chris
But they they were vulnerable beings, but they were, in relationship of complete love with God and one another. And so that vulnerability, actually, served a good purpose because it helped them to, to see how much they're loved. And so here's what I found out. In my own life, until I was actually willing to be vulnerable and not have to be the always the fix a guy, always have everything under control, always, you know, be the tough.

00;27;22;13 - 00;28;01;11
Chris
What? You can't. Nothing hurts me. I wasn't able to actually experience how much I was loved. Because if you're not vulnerable, you can't experience. You can't experience really, truly experience being loved. Because until you are loved at your worst, you never you won't really know what it means to truly been, be loved. Okay. And so, until you're willing to open up your vulnerability and like, I've got these issues, I've got these struggles, here's where I'm weak and you're able to to, you know, open yourself up to that.

00;28;01;13 - 00;28;26;00
Chris
Then the possibility of love coming in and actually transforming your shame is going to be nearly impossible. And so it can be hard. But, what I'm trying to do now, just give, give the hope to say hey, like, yes, it's really, really hard. But it is in the long run. We're going to be harder if you if you don't go there.

00;28;26;00 - 00;28;29;15
Chris
And here's the possibility that's opens up, for you.

00;28;29;15 - 00;28;30;24

And

00;28;30;26 - 00;28;41;20
Brenton
So, you know, given all that in what and what context should this happen? So how can we actually discern if we can trust someone enough with these things?

00;28;41;23 - 00;29;20;03
Chris
Yeah, I mean, I, I do think at some point you have to just make the choice, like I'm, I'm going to risk being hurt, you know, like, if you want the guarantee that, like, you're never going to be, hurt if you open yourself up and then you just keep yourself isolated. And, C.S. Lewis actually has something very powerful to say about that is like, if you yeah, you can keep yourself being from from being yourself open to love and but you basically you get end up with a hard heart.

00;29;20;06 - 00;30;02;08
Chris
And so I do think with that being said, you just don't run up to anybody and just share like your biggest, deepest struggles or challenges or whatever. So you just have to try to be, discerning. And, I think that the church, is a great place to, to look for that. And hopefully, you know, harmony is becoming that more and more of that kind of place where people are going to be met with grace first and then, you know, as, as, as the relationships are being built, we're we're going to speak the truth and help people.

00;30;02;11 - 00;30;11;16
Chris
But hopefully, you know, one of the greatest ways, I think, is to find somebody who's willing to be vulnerable with you.

00;30;11;18 - 00;30;12;18

Yeah.

00;30;12;21 - 00;30;27;11
Chris
I mean, so the number one thing that I, I almost always get, and especially I'm getting right now is the feedback. Positive feedback is for being being vulnerable.

00;30;27;13 - 00;30;27;22
Brenton
Yeah.

00;30;27;24 - 00;31;00;29
Chris
That's true. So you know our vulnerability opens up other people. If I can share what I'm struggling with and that I'm not perfect and maybe open other people up. So look, you know, like get to know people and look for people who are willing to share, their own story and their own vulnerability, with you. And for some people, it might very well mean you need to get in touch with our counseling ministry.

00;31;01;01 - 00;31;14;04
Chris
Pastor, elder deacon, staff member. Got a lot of great ladies at the church, community group leaders. So, yeah, they have to be hopefully trustworthy people is what you're looking for.

00;31;14;10 - 00;31;25;13
Brenton
So, yeah. Okay, so let's end with this. On the flip side of that, how how can we work to be someone trustworthy enough for people to share their shame with us?

00;31;25;16 - 00;31;55;07
Chris
Yeah. Well, if we're going to, to do that and be that for other people, we have to make sure we're doing our own work, because I've, I found, that oftentimes, even in trying to help people, if we're not aware of how their their story of shame sets off our story of shame, it can go we can go bad.

00;31;55;07 - 00;32;17;12
Chris
Like, we can get bad advice, or we can stop listening and and talk too much, which I may be accused of doing every once in a while. But I think again. One of the hopefully the biggest things people are going to take away from all this is just being even aware of what how shame shows up in your life.

00;32;17;12 - 00;32;54;01
Chris
So, so that's that's where I think we need to start. If we're going to help with other people. Because when people start sharing, maybe some shameful things, judgment can really easily fire off and and because like, oh, okay, that when that's our shame, shame speaking. So you're just going to be aware of that. And I just think it goes back to the judgment thing is like if we are able to truly and use the word actualize, appreciate, accept God's grace for us, then we won't be judging ourselves.

00;32;54;01 - 00;33;08;22
Chris
And if we don't judge ourselves, that will free us up to not be as judgmental with other people and just to receive them, with grace. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean.

00;33;08;24 - 00;33;10;17
Brenton
Good, good things to think about.

00;33;10;17 - 00;33;40;00
Chris
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think in our heart of hearts, most of us want to be a part of a church and a community of not of judgment and critique. I mean, like, who wants who wants to come into a church gathering on Sunday and like, and going in and this people are going to, you know, if I don't dress right, I don't have the right Bible or any Bible at all.

00;33;40;02 - 00;34;00;20
Chris
I don't do this or I don't do that. People are going to be, you know, like I'm I'm worried like what people are going to say or people are going to think we all, we all want to be able to be accepted and and and loved. So let's create that culture that we we want to experience ourselves.

00;34;00;22 - 00;34;03;29
Brenton
Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for that.

00;34;04;05 - 00;34;06;10
Chris
Episode 100 in the books. Yeah.

00;34;06;11 - 00;34;25;15
Brenton
Done. Well, I do want to say something to you guys listening. Thanks for listening to us for 100 times. It's been a it's been a long time. We didn't really know how this was going to go when we started. And so it's it's good to see that you guys are still listening. Hopefully you're finding it really helpful.

00;34;25;17 - 00;34;46;24
Brenton
And we have no plans to stop and, anytime soon. So, yeah, really appreciate, just the way you guys have stuck with it. If you do have any questions about what we're talking about, ask it for their podcast.com. Be looking at our Harmony social media accounts, and look for the post that comes out about further.

00;34;46;27 - 00;34;53;29
Brenton
Share that and you'll be entered into win. One of these resources we talked about and we will talk to you next week. Yep.